P2P Podcast Series: Jennifer Cruz from Marketing to Full-Stack

Sprouting in the Dominican Republic, Jennifer Cruz (LinkedIn) started out working in marketing, but always knew it wasn't a good fit.  So she signed up for all the classes on Coursera and eventually found software engineering.

I am inspired by her balanced use of breadth-first and depth-first as an approach to living and learning. It takes time to get it right.

Listen to how she finds her own rhythm, motivation, and even a little satisfaction.

Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Overcast, or your favorite platform.

Zeke Arany-Lucas is a developer, leader, and consultant from Seattle, living and working in Berlin since 2014. He has been in the tech industry for more than 25 years, starting with web browser development in the 90s, including long stints at both Microsoft and Amazon in multiple leadership roles. You can also follow him on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.

Artwork by Emre Aydogan & Laura Diezler — ©️2022 Zeke Arany-Lucas

Read the full transcript

Zeke: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Introspective Developer. I am Zeke Arany-Lucas, and we have a great show for you today.

I'm joined today by Jennifer Cruz. Who is a software development engineer. Um, She uh, recently left Amazon, but she had a very interesting path into becoming a developer. Hi Jennifer, can you introduce yourself?

Jennifer: Hi, Um, yeah, I'm Jennifer. So you already said that. Um, And yeah, I have been working in the tech industry for the last maybe five years, I guess. Well, actually that's a lie. Um, It's been longer, but as a developer uh, it's been mostly for the last five years. And yeah, Um, I don't know if I should um, tell the whole story as part of the introduction or we go to that later.

Zeke: What is it that you're working on right now?

Jennifer: There are a lot of things happening right now. But on the software side of things, I'm working on a project. It's an application, that I hope other [00:01:00] engineers will use. Uh, And I hope to maybe launch that to market by the end of the year.

Zeke: What kind of an application?

Jennifer: Um, It's uh, okay. Long story short, it's a diagramming app, so yeah,

Zeke: Like a UML diagramming?

Jennifer: Yeah, yeah. Like that, I know that I already like a few in the markets, but the plan is to make something that it's like a delight to use.

Zeke: That is a delight to use. What makes it more delightful? I mean, I actually love doing diagrams as a developer, like, you know, making box diagrams and stuff like this, but they actually almost all of them drive me crazy.

Jennifer: Yeah, that is a thing like, you know, I think not, not all the time, but many times they're actually using these tools in the context in which you're trying to explain something to somebody. And for some reason, at some point you have to stop your conversation and focus on making the app work because it's not doing what it's supposed to be doing or where you expect it to be doing.

So I want to create something that makes it very smooth. You can just like, continue your conversation about it. You know, you're creating your boxes and [00:02:00] relations and whatever, and it's just part of your flow.

Zeke: I first started diagramming using Word. I think this is the very beginning of my career. Word, it's just so painful. I can't even tell you how painful it is to do any kind of diagramming. And Vizio was better, but it still just felt like I spent so much time, you know, like twiddling the lines, you know, every time you move something, then everything else, is out of whack and then you have to, you know, pixel pixel, the pixel pixel, so that the little connections and stuff like this are square, or I don't know.

Jennifer: And I just spend a lot of time setting things together and then you just move that one thing and then you need to spend again the same amount of time making everything looks as you want.

Zeke: Exactly, exactly. And that feels like it's still the same for me. I think most of the time, these days I use the PlantUML. And part of the reason I like using PlantUML is because I can't do any of the pixel [00:03:00] fiddling.

Jennifer: So it saves you a lot of troubles because it's a really limited what you

Zeke: That's exactly it, it limits what I can do with it. So I don't actually get stuck trying to do the, those little things now.

Jennifer: That's smart.

Insight: Learning German every which way

Jennifer: So I'm, I'm living in Germany for four years already and I'm still working on my German. So that takes more time that I, that I would like to

Zeke: how long have you been studying the German?

Jennifer: Well, I mean, on and off, I think ever since I moved here, you know, like I said, for the first six months I was studying very intense. Because it was actually a requirement for um, to renew my residence permit. And then I stopped to focus on work. Then I continued like doing it here and on mostly like a self-paced kind of thing, because I really have no, I don't have a lot of patience for classrooms, um, anymore, at least not language like that.

And last year, actually, when I [00:04:00] um, stop at Amazon, I spent like three months been super intensive for it. Like I signed up to at least six courses in different vocals should all over Berlin. I was like, I spend some days just going literally like drawing a triangle going from one point to the other in the city.

Uh, Because I didn't want to take like the traditional, um, language course. I knew I will be too bored. I wasn't, I was taking like literature courses or uh, there was like a bike tour in German for German learners and things

Zeke: Oh, it sounds like I should ask you for kind of reviews. Cause I, my German has also stalled out. I've been here now for seven years and I did my most intense kind of learning in the first year or so. And then since then I didn't do any formal education either. That's interesting.

Cause this is what kind of learning really works best for you. You know, you kind of alluded to this. You said, I didn't want to go to classes. What kind of learning learning is working for [00:05:00] you?

Insight: calibrating with peers

Jennifer: Yeah. So I, I will say like I'm a very independent learner. Um, I don't know. Probably that's not a good thing to say, but I'm not very patient. And the experience that I've had before, for example, my, the first one, I just arrived to Germany. I went to this class. And it's an experience that I've seen very often. Like, you know, you're always have people at different levels in every single class.

Uh, People, some people are already advanced. Maybe they already have background knowledge or not. So people are on the slower end. And it's very frustrating for me because I feel like teachers more often than not go, they take the pace of the very slow person in the class. And that makes it so that like, whoever else is not a slower person is gonna get bored at some point.

So after this experience, I was like, no, I'm gonna design my own learning path. Oh, I even, I actually tried with a private teacher. Uh, And that was very funny because she kept talking in English and I was [00:06:00] like, let's go back to German, but he could push in English all the time. And at some point, like after two months, he was like, you know what?

I won't charge you because I actually didn't do anything. I'm like, yeah. I noticed that.

Zeke: That's awesome. I mean, it re it reflects the pattern that I've seen when I was, when I first was learning German and how quickly everybody switched to English, as soon as they understood that I was an English fluent English speaker, because it was much more important for them to learn English and improve their English than it was for them to help me improve my German.

Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. Like even this supposedly paid teacher told me at some point, like, I love it talking to you because I can practice my English. And I'm like, well, that is not why we're here. Is it.

Zeke: That's brilliant.

Insight: Learning diversity

Jennifer: But for example, when it comes to Joe to learning a language, I'm like, you basically have like four components to learning any language, try, like you need to be able to talk. You need to be [00:07:00] able to listen. You need to be able to read. I mean, maybe not everybody needs that. Um, And to write. And basically what I try to do is to tackle all of these areas in different ways.

I, for example, try to find uh shows in Netflix or prime or whatever in German. That's been a little bit of a challenge for me because I have like this watch list that is huge. And most of the shows in it are in English. So I have to put that aside and be like, no, I'm going to focus in German stuff.

Zeke: Do you know, Do you know, that, you know, that a bunch of shows have pretty good German dubs. And if you've already watched it in English, it's, I mean, it's super painful. It's super painful. Cause like you're like the discordance of the voices, but it's easier to kind of uh, to follow along with the German, if you already know what the English is.

Right. So if you've watched, say, I know somebody would like watch all the Seinfeld episodes and they watched the German [00:08:00] version of the Seinfeld episodes, you know, like, you know what they're saying?

Jennifer: Yeah, but you see that is also the thing, like, like uh, English is not my mother tongue. And therefore, I also feel like I need to keep cultivating it. And actually ever since I moved to Germany, my English has been going down hill, like crazy. Also my Spanish.

Zeke: So you speak Spanish and English. Um, Do you speak anything else?

Jennifer: Yeah. Um, In the past I used to speak Italian. I have no idea if I'm able to do that anymore. Um, Also when I was, when I started learning German, I was able to speak in French. Uh, But I noticed like around, I don't know, after the first year I went to France, I had this thing that every time I wanted to say something in French, I was saying it in German.

And when I came back to Germany every time I would say something in German wanting to say something in German, I was saying it in French. And at that point I was like, do you know what? I'll put my French in a drawer. And maybe hopefully eight years from now, it's going to be there. [00:09:00] Or maybe not, who knows.

Zeke: Oh, nice. So I came to Germany, not really ever having been fluent in a second language or even kind of semi fluent in a second language, except for programming languages.

And um, and I was curious, do you find that being kind of bilingual helped you learn about programming?

Insight: is code LANGUAGE?

Jennifer: Um, I'm not sure about that. I mean, it is interesting that you mentioned that because my husband, he's also a programmer. And when we met, I was super, super interested in human languages. Like um, at that time it was actually when I was studying Italian and French and I already spoke English. Um, And he had no interest whatsoever in any of these human.

I was like, you need to learn Italian so we can speak Italian together to have somebody to like practice my Italian with. Um, But he was like, no, I I'm only interested in programming languages. Like he learned English because, you know, [00:10:00] modern times it's kind of a requirement to work.

Zeke: Especially if you're a programmer, the lingua franca of programming is definitely english.

Jennifer: So I say like, as this conscious, because he had such a strong interest in programming languages, but not in human languages. And he still had a very hard time learning these languages. Like, like he's been dragging, they're learning different things, so that it's almost shameful. Um, Whereas, but I come from the other end in which I was always very interested in um, human languages.

So when I approached programming is what it was. I mean, it was interesting to me, like I actually saw it as another language limited, maybe like um, I don't think we can, you know, have a philosophical discussion with, uh, uh, with a computer or whatever, but in many ways it feels like a language, like a more rudimentary kind of it.

Insight: code is communication

Zeke: Most of programming, the work of programming has done part of the same part of your brain that does language [00:11:00] processing. It turns out so it's like 70% like that people often say, oh, you know, software programming is all about math and it's about logic and stuff.

It's not true.

There's certainly part of it is about being logical, but the, like all this stuff about how we organize the information and the cognition stuff, it's all pretty much processed by the language part of the brain, which is why function, names, and class names. And even the syntactical sugar of a language makes such a big difference.

I mean, try reading your code out loud and you'll be like, okay, I should rewrite this code because when you read it out loud, you realize that you know how stumbly it is by reading it aloud, often ends up being like the, in the awkward parts of the code itself. And the best languages tend to be the ones that activate the language parts of it.

And it makes sense, right? Because the language parts of our brain are hyper developed. Like they're just, they're [00:12:00] so crucial to everybody all the time.

Jennifer: Yeah,

Zeke: Yeah. I mean, communication never gets old. Right. And if you think about it, like even COVID. One of the things that w when we're writing really good code is the, the why and the meta out of it, that's what you want to be, to communicate through the code, not just what it does, because anybody can debug that, but really good code tells you more also about like, why it is. The aesthetics of it will kind of explain something deeper um, you know uh, builds context.

Um, It's not just, what does the computer do. It's, you know, why, why were you as a developer writing it in the first place.

Cause it sounds to me like you were trying to convince your husband that he should learn to speak foreign languages. There's, you know, broadened his horizons in the human language area. And then here are the other ends.

Insight: persistence of opportunity

Zeke: Like you became a software [00:13:00] developer where like this was he influencing you more or were you influencing him?

Jennifer: No, so sadly I couldn't influence him that much on that area. He never learned Italian, so I had nobody to speak Italian with later. Um, But when it comes to programming, he was actually uh, like from very early on uh, after we met, he was always telling me like, oh, I think, I think it will be a good programmer, you should give it a try.

And I mean, he just kept telling me that over the years, like there were different times in life. I was like having doubts about what I was doing. I was like, huh, maybe I should go a different path. And he was, will always come back and be like, I think you would be a good programmer.

Zeke: That's called evangelism. You know, he's out there evangelizing his, his, you know, his coding skills. So how long ago was that?

Jennifer: Well the whole thing. I think 2009 that's when we met. And that's when he started like telling me that. And actually um, [00:14:00] the year after that 2010, I had some free time and he taught me a little bit of HTML and CSS. That was like the entry point. He was like, because for him, it was super excited, exciting to do his first webpage.

He thought he will get me super excited if he did the same thing with me. So um, he taught me that we may like a toy, um, website, a static webpage for a museum, that we never showed the museum, so they don't know it existed. Um, But that was it for me. I was like, oh yeah, it's interesting. Uh, But yeah, let's move on. I moved to something else

Zeke: He's all like, you should learn how to program. You're like, okay, show me something.

That's very nice. It's a beautiful website. Thank you very much for sharing something with me. Let me go get busy. So what, so what did you, so then you, so you did not, um.

Jennifer: Uh, that was like around the time I was finishing my degree. Yeah. I wasn't studying marketing at that time. And it was like right after I finished uh, four. So, I mean, I had [00:15:00] like three jobs, but for whatever reason, everything stopped at once. Like I finished my degree all my job stops some things didn't renew.

And then all of a sudden I had this free time. So it was kind of perfect. I'm like, okay, now let's pay attention to you and see what you're talking about. Um, I tried it and I thought it was interesting, but it didn't really got me at the time. Um, A few years later we actually moved to Colombia. He's from Colombia and we set up a software development company.

That was also a little bit of a funny story because like, we didn't have the intention of creating such a cool. We basically had like so many cool ideas that we wanted to do. We needed the money for, but we didn't have the money. So we're like, oh, let's just make a company that gives us the money so we can work on these ideas.

Um, And yeah, it turns out having a company it's a lot of work. But when we were there also, like in that context, um, I ended up taking a Coursera [00:16:00] course on programming. The first one was I think uh, Ruby on rails. I don't know why, honestly, I remember absolutely nothing of that course. I just remember the feeling and the feeling was like, this is crazy.

Like how can anybody understand this? So the next thing I tried was a Python course. Um, And, and again, like for him, games are very excited. So he, so despite on course in which you will make like a video. And he thought that maybe I will get super excited. And again because we were like in the context of the company and it was so far, and I was working with other developers, I thought, well, maybe I can learn a little bit of that and, you know, to speak, to have like better conversations with them.

So I took this python course uh, in which at the end I had like this uh, small video game. It was pretty cool also because they gave us the graphic. So like, it, it actually looked professional. Um, But I'm not a gamer. Like I don't do video [00:17:00] games. I don't find them interesting. I'm sorry. I know that sounds boring, but I do not.

So at the end he was like, that is so cool. I'm like,

Zeke: So, what were you, what was your role since you're not a developer and it was a software company, what were you doing in?

Jennifer: Um, I was doing everything else. No, I actually, I tried different roles. Um, Over the years that lasted, I was what I was mostly working like as a project manager, product manager, and sometimes kind of tester.

Insight: Testing is undervalued

Jennifer: But I mean, that is something that I find a little, um, I don't know, what's the right word, but I feel like many devs that I've worked with or that I've seen or heard of don't test their stuff properly.

Uh, And I don't know if it's because of this experience or maybe it's just like, I have a bad star, but somehow I always end up finding the bugs that nobody else thought of. Like, I always click in the one place in the one thing and always when these things I'm like, guys, this is broken.

Zeke: Well, you [00:18:00] know um, I often think of it as, you know, breakers and builders. Like there are different modalities when you're trying to imagine how things will break. It's still understanding how it works, but it's not the same as when you had an, how things will work. You know, like how things will be successful and you can kind of see there's a lot of developers spend a lot of time, you know, you know, like figuring out what the success path looks like.

And they're like, this code is flawless and then they have to create edgy conditions. And it turns out all the complexity of the software was in the error conditions. Right? So they, so by designing around the success flow, they actually made a kind of an architectural mistake because the actual problems were the hardest problems to solve for the software as often the error conditions.

I mean, you're right. A lot of software is written as if errors were not a problem. Hackers, hackers love this. I mean, this is the, you know, security research is all about finding the edge cases and [00:19:00] figuring out a way to exploit them.

Jennifer: Yeah, I know. But actually also makes my flow like, sometimes it's slower because I feel like, because I have this tester mindset also, like from the very beginning, I'm already like finding stuff and kind of like solving them along the way. And that also means that I ended up like doing a lot of work that typically goes later in the flow.

I ended up doing it like earlier, because for me, like, I don't, I don't think something is so until it's done properly, like until it actually works, you know, like maybe, I don't know, maybe you need like this very specific form, but if I know that the form will not like submit unless you have the specific conditions, but we want you to have more freedom as a user.

I'm like, well, the form is actually not ready for you yet, because you cannot do like, I dunno like the 10 things we wanted you to do, or maybe we need, we can negotiate five of them, but like just a submit button is not enough.

Zeke: So we, we want you in the mission critical projects, right? So there's some projects that you just don't like it, like, if it falls apart, who cares, like, you know, the [00:20:00] customers won't care, the system doesn't care. So like there's other stuff it's like, you know, like it should never go down. And, you know, when you want five nines of reliability, you approach your software, building your software much differently.

I mean, I mean, I was looking, I was looking at some stuff recently and basically if the site was down for 12 hours, the customers didn't care. Why would the customers not care? But it's because the customers were on like a 30 day schedule because it's about shipping things across the world.

And so the fact that like, they can't get data or can't see what the thing is doing on any particular day. They'll just look at it tomorrow. That doesn't matter. Right.

Jennifer: Okay.

Zeke: Um, so yeah, I've been going to Mars, right? Where you don't get to update the software very often. Definitely did. Testing is pretty important.

Jennifer: Yes, definitely. I, I also do um, probably read that many years ago that um, rocket that kind of exploded like right after launching because of, um, [00:21:00] I think it was like some stack overflow or something like that.

I totally forgot the name. I don't know, but I was fascinated just by the fact that it was just like this one programming mistake that basically

Zeke: no, I know which one you're talking about. I think you were talking about where it was um, I think it was like uh, a bug about the conversion between meter some like unit conversion

Jennifer: yeah, I think so. I think it was, but I know it was something related to France.

Zeke: Uh, I'll look it up later.

Okay. So you were working, doing all the things that are not programming at this company, both still kind of, kind of dabbling in looking at some, some classes and saying, eh, cool, but not for me. Let's kind of roll forward to what was the point at which you said I'm going to take this seriously?

Jennifer: well that took, it's still like a lot of jumping. Uh, At some point I actually, [00:22:00] um, I guess it is marketing and then I did a master in what marketing and e-commerce. And at some point I decided, okay, this is really not what I want to be working on. Like forever. I want to do something else.

So I went back to university for a biology degree. And at that time I actually, like when I was getting ready for that, um, I took other programming courses because I thought like, I want to join the uh, genetics lab. And I know like programming skills are important there. And I also knew that like, um, um, you know, people like in their first years were not allowed in the lab, but if you were like a programmer, they will like take you in because they really need this skill.

So I was like, I will, I will do it just for that. Um, So I, I, at that time, like I dabbled with other stuff. So like basic math courses, some programming courses, um, I went to the university, but I was there just for a year. Like life happened. Uh, So [00:23:00] fast forward, I ended up in the United States um, unable to continue my studies there.

It is just too freaking expensive. And you know, like a newly arrived person doesn't have a credit history. There's no way anybody's going to give them money, uh, or lend them money for it. So at that point, I, I cannot continue my studies. I already know, I don't want to go back to marketing or even like um, management and stuff like that.

So, and then my husband, he said like, you know, you could be a good programmer, you know, like he's been all these years. And at that point, I think, okay. Um, What is to lose? I mean, like, why don't I explore this path, get ready for it, work on it and, and see how it's like, I mean, worst case scenario, I really don't like it.

And in that case, I can have other roles in the industry, or I can even maybe like um, you know, connect that to some master degree also like in the field of biology or genetics or [00:24:00] whatever. Um, That is a worst case scenario. Best case scenario, I actually have the time of my life. It's actually, because you know, like everybody knows already, like it's a good career path.

You have a lot of, um, jobs uh, they pay well, so. I thought, like, why not? Let's give it a try. So basically we sit down together, we make a full plan for myself in which he identifies this is okay. These are like the key components that I think you should master to be able to get a job in the field.

Something that I appreciate a lot is that uh, he has a very strong focus on fundamentals.

Like he really believes that if you master the fundamentals, you can learn anything. So, I am thinking his planning, he probably overdid it. You know, like I ended up taking these like super complicated, um, data science, um, data science, no, um, data structures course, um, online. That took me, like, it was like a semester [00:25:00] course in Harvard extension school.

And that was tough. Like, I feel like something, my brain somehow restricted after the, I don't know if neurons died or they were born or whatever, but like, I could feel my brain physically changing. Uh, So I think like we overdid it there and I, of course there was other stuff I was doing like this um, I did uh, the Udacity. I mean, it's online and they call it Nanodegree, but it's basically a bootcamp.

Um, What else? I'll also the programming language to start with was an important decision. And he was like, you should start with Java. I'm like, why? Because it's like hard. Like you will have so many problems with it that once you go through that. You will be able to work on any programming language you want. I'm like, okay, let's do it.

Um, So I was also like getting ready to, uh, get the Java, uh, certification uh, which I never did actually, but I was like getting ready for it. And in the process [00:26:00] learned a lot. So it was kind of, um, how, like a collage learning plan for me that I work on for a year.

Zeke: collage?

Jennifer: Yeah. I will say a collage because we took like things from different places. It was like, okay, these are the areas you need to, um, like you need to, you know, a programming language, you need them to learn like the frameworks and your tools. You need uh, algorithmic algorithms. Because I mean, there have like mixed feelings.

Insight: algorithms are overrated but cool

Jennifer: I don't, I don't think because, you know, it's very popular to ask like a few algorithm questions in almost any interview, but I think most jobs actually don't need this skill. Um, So I'm like, why work so hard on it when you don't actually need it? And maybe like, you're calling this a time with something else that is a general thing.

Like I personally totally love it. And that was kind of what makes me have the most fun when I Was like covering this. But, when I took that class to like, [00:27:00] when I kind of had like the, I dunno, a blast, it was so far, I mean, it was painful, but it was also very fun.

Like, I don't know. I could like kind of experience like how things come together and the beauty of it and like how something that seems very complicated can actually be solved thinking about it in the right way. That was, that was just fun for me, but I don't think it's fun for everybody. And I don't see why, like the industry kind of want to impose that on everybody.

When you know, I I've had jobs. The most like complicated algorithmic thing I've had to do is just make us sound like, I don't know, two plus two or something like that. Um,

Zeke: I don't think that that's technically algorithms.

Jennifer: Yeah, exactly that to my points.

Zeke: So there's like a, Hey digital tip of your toes in the water. It's like, yeah, that's not for me. And then three years later, you have this, a little bit of space because you can't go to school. What you were thinking you were going to do, and [00:28:00] you can't work because you're in the United States.

You don't have a work permit and getting H1-B permit or something like that is kind of a nightmare. And then, so you, you started doing self study programs. It sounds like you Coursera, Udacity the Harvard extension.

Jennifer: Yeah, I, was also, I mean, I I try so many uh, mock plat platforms. It was Coursera E the ex um, if Udacity, um, I think I'm missing one there at some point, you know, I was new in the states. Like that meant that I didn't actually have a social network. I was at home all the time student. I got something I'm like, I need to like see humans, you know?

So I also went to a community college for, um, some course, like in preparation, I think it was in preparation for the Java certification, but honestly, the excuse was just like to get out and know people.

Zeke: Was that, did it, was that part successful? Did you actually meet some other people that kind [00:29:00] of helped build your network or something?

Jennifer: I mean, it wasn't successful in that way. It was like, actually just nice to go out and drive a beat and go somewhere else and like actually see people and interact physically with people. Um, But it wasn't the best pace to, you know, like have long lasting, um, contacts or something like that.

Insight: self-directed education

Zeke: So it sounds to me, I feel like when I'm listening to all this stuff, one of the skills that you have, one of the underlying skills you have is being able to drive your own education. It sounds like you were, you know, whether you're doing. You know, cause you're talking about how you're learning German and you're like, I'm not going to use the typical class structure.

I'm going to go do, you know, bicycle German. And I'm going to go do a museum German and TV German and things like this. So you're kind of identifying the areas that you need to build skills and then finding tools that will help build those skills on your own. Um, That's that's I think, well, first of all, I think it's great.

It's [00:30:00] actually a super good fit with software because you know, new frameworks, new languages, new technologies, new patterns that are constantly being thrown at you and you have to constantly figure out which ones are worth learning or not worth learning and how you learn them. Have you, have you kind of seen that.

Jennifer: Oh, yeah. I was actually telling my husband the other night that one of the reasons that as a young person in high school, I discarded medicine back at that time was because I kept people hearing, like, do you need to always keep studying? Like, if you offer medicine, you will never stop studying. I was like, I want to stop studying.

At some point I would not go for medicine. And then I ended up in this field where basically every day there is something new to that I'm like, how did that happen?

Zeke: Well, I mean, maybe you thought you were going to stop studying, but maybe you're drawn to, to studying.

Jennifer: I actually, I actually enjoyed, you know, like I, I wish I was paid just to learn stuff, but [00:31:00] I, nobody wants to pay for

that,

Zeke: that, what academia is? I mean, It's to learn and teach if the learn and teach

Jennifer: it's complicated. But yeah, like in theory,

Zeke: Uh, in theory theory and practice. Okay. So, so you spend this, this, you had this gap year almost where you're studying, and this is in 2017, you said, or 2016.

Jennifer: Yeah, that was yeah, like, yeah. From 2016 to 2017. So I was like at the beginning of 2017, when I was kind of like um, nearing the end of my self-made program and, um, the Udacity, they actually have these, um, like they have this thing with other companies in which they try to get you an internship. Once you complete one of the nano degrees.

I don't, I don't know if they still do that. I'm guessing they probably still do. But back at that time, that was also one of the reasons why I chose them. I was like, they will get me a job. Um, So. [00:32:00] When I was there in the end, they sent me these thing, like setting, Hey um, these companies in your area and they are like running these recruiting events.

Insight: everybody chokes sometime

Jennifer: Uh, Do you want to go to do like a three months internship over the summer? And at that time I showed that to my husband. I'm like, Hey, look at this. Do you think like, should I apply? I, he looks at everything that like required for the role and he's like, Hmm, I don't think you're ready, but you should go to gain some interview experience because you will need that anyways.

So I go to the interview and I have no, I forgot like 99% of what happened there. So maybe like the first part of the interview was amazing. I don't know. I have no idea. The one thing I remember is that the last question they asked me was, um, to uh, like implement the fibonacci algorithm, which I think it's the one thing that everybody sees.

Always, you know, like every [00:33:00] bootcamp, every like thing that makes you like, oh yeah. Preparation for taking tourists or whatever. So I had seen it 1000 times in so many different ways in different programming languages, different implementations. I was very familiar with it, but at that time I just froze, like my mind was, I don't think my mind has ever been so blank before or after.

Um, So I was like, I mean, I, I don't know how many times I actually told them I can do this. I mean, I can't do this now, but I can do this.

Zeke: I promise you on any other day of the week, this would be easy for me.

Jennifer: Exactly. And I know, I mean, I, at some point I tried to, I was like, okay. Um, the environment was very nice, you know, like, I, I wasn't feeling like super observed or like, oh, you fail big time. They were encouraging and they were like, try, just try something. So I just tried something at the [00:34:00] end, after like a lot of work, I kind of made some structure, but I knew it was wrong.

Um, And at least I could like at least highlight, like, I know this doesn't work, but I honestly cannot like really think right now how to make it properly. Um, So I, I like the interview ends, I go back home, my husband asks,"How did it go?" I was like, "I'm ashamed of myself, I couldn't do that Fibnacci."

He laughed at me. He continues to laugh at me to this day. Um, But I don't know, like I I'm guessing something good happened before that because they call me and they were like, "Hey, you're in." I was very surprised and excited.

It was, they actually have like this uh, summer program in which they were bringing in many CS, computer science, students from other universities all over the country. And they were also trying out with like this Udacity. Um, How do you see my nurse or what, like these recent graduates from university? I [00:35:00] think I was like the second maybe the second group uh, that are in the second group that applied. They actually had a very good experience with the first group. So they were like, yeah, let's, let's continue trying that.

Um, And I get in, I do the internship for like three months, uh, to my surprise, you know, because my husband was like, I don't think you're ready, but they got like, I'm there and I'm actually working and all the time, I like super intimidated because I want with these uh, all of these, like young people that are coming from like computer science program.

And I'm sure that they know something that I don't know. So I'm like, Ooh. Uh, They also like something that happens very often in the industry is that people talks a lot in like, um, how do you say? Um, you always use short hands for expression,

Zeke: TLAs and stuff, acronyms?

Insight: Acronyms are intimidating

Jennifer: Yeah. Throwing letters, throwing acronyms at you. So, and that's something, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore because he's just acronyms and acronyms. So I was like very intimidated, but, um, I managed to work. [00:36:00] I actually think the, especially the nanodegree program, it really like prepare me with the tools that you need for like daily work in the, in the field.

I did the one for frontend. Like I was doing all the backend stuff on other platforms and resources, but for, with Udacity I did a frontend Nanodegree. And like all the tools I learned there, what all the tools I actually needed to do the work.

Zeke: That's a rare occurrence. I feel like where you're the skills that you're given are actually the skills that you're going to need next.

Insight: Intersect education with job reqs

Jennifer: Yeah. And that's also, you know, that, that also changed a little bit how I look at university education. Because when we were having this company, we were also, um, like trying to recruit people that were just coming out of university. They couldn't do anything. It was like that you spent five years at a university and HTML is hard for you.

Whereas you're the, this Nanodegree for like, I mean, I took a year, but it [00:37:00] was supposed to take like six months and you actually know have the tools to be productive at work. I mean, like, you know, not like super productive, you will learn stuff at work, especially when you are, you're starting, but it's a huge contrast, you know?

Um, So I don't know, but that's like, we can also spend hours talking about that topic.

Zeke: When, when you talk about, you know, how do people jump into tech? And I think getting that alignment with the classes that you choose, the classes or the coursework or the things that you self study, whatever it is that you want it to. I mean, the reason you're doing this a lot of times is so that you can get a different job.

You're trying to make a career switch. And so you need to actually kind of look at the market to the market and see what are the companies going to be using. Like, I want to get this job and you can just go look at job descriptions on LinkedIn and say, here are the requirements. These are the skills that they need.

And they say, okay, you're a front end developer these days, you know, like [00:38:00] probably you're going to want to know node and react, right? If you don't know react, there's just a lot of jobs you can't get because react is so popular.

And does university teach react? Probably not because react does a major version switch every six months. And how do you build a syllabus in a university setting where the material has to change in the middle of the year? It just seems unlikely.

Insight: Fluency in one enables another

Jennifer: But I think that you can actually learn one of these framework. Kind of, you know, like be fluent using it. And it shouldn't be that hard to learn something new after that, because many of the concepts just translate from one thing to the other.

And once you know how to achieve something with one, it will be more easy for you to ask questions to the other to be like, okay, now I actually, I don't know. Maybe I learned, um, Vue uh, the university or whatever, and this specific version, and now I finished and I go to work and they are using React. [00:39:00]

You can ask these questions to the framework also like how I used to, I don't know, render components in this specific way using Vue. How do you do that in react now?

So the learning curve is not that hard. Um, I gained, like do do, wouldn't be, you know, it's, it will be very hard to keep like exactly up to speed with the industry, but I think you can lay better, um, grounds, for people to be able to like quickly uh, learn whatever it is they need to learn next.

Zeke: I agree. I'm sure that's why your husband was like, learn the fundamentals, learn the fundamentals. Because the languages change, the frameworks change, the hardware changes, the users change, the businesses change, but the fundamentals, they don't actually change. You know um, when they're really the real fundamentals you can say.

Um, But I still think that uh, I was more thinking about this from the standpoint of when you're choosing how to spend your time.

Today, like, you don't want to [00:40:00] learn COBOL. Unless you do, unless you say, you know what, I know that the, all the COBOL developers are retiring and there's going to be a huge opportunity because the banks haven't gotten rid of their COBOL software. There's going to be huge opportunity for some young enterprising developers to decide that they're going to go learn COBOL as their primary language and, you know, just make bank for the next 30 years at the banks, you know?

Um, So that's that's, but that's a, that's a, that's a strategy, right? So you say, I want to be a frontend developer on, you know, SaaS products that are like uh, you know, better to learn uh, react than it is to learn PHP these days, for example. But if you're going to be a WordPress developer, then it's all about learning PHP.

Jennifer: Yeah.

Zeke: I don't know. I mean, this is just my feeling, is that because you're you're right. I think that once you go really deep and become really fluent in, you know, maybe a couple of different frameworks, then learning new ones becomes easier and [00:41:00] easier. And kind of like your understand, which is portable, what concepts are portable, but in the beginning, you know, you, can't, it's hard.

I think for people to tell like why this is a fundamental and not part of the framework, I'll just, I'll just kind of use a cognitive example from the very beginning of my career, when users would call up in tech support and they would say, you know, Windows is broken or Microsoft is broken or something like this, that they, they were using the app every day.

So they just, they lived in Word and for them Windows, Microsoft, and Word, those are all the same thing. There was no, there was no operating system piece. There was no kind of app piece. They just saw them as like, there's the thing that I spend all day in typing and it's not working and it's your company's fault. And I don't care how it works. You know, like you can't explain to me.

And, but later on, of course, if you can like this thing and say, oh, I'm better at this because I can manage [00:42:00] my apps. I can manage the operating system differently. I, you know, I know that this is a, this is a networking problem and it really has nothing to do with Word.

Anyway, I feel like it's, you know, lucky that you got that, that, that intersection, But also um, obviously you made a pretty good plan that was directed towards an outcome or the skills you're going to get are useful.

Jennifer: Yeah. But I think you actually made a very good point before. Um, Like for somebody that was just thinking about it right now, I think it's a very good idea to actually just look at um, job offers like in your area. See if these are things you will actually. You will actually like to be working on and see what they are requiring.

And that will like already kind of give you some, um, so like these frameworks are in high demand. There is like this programming languages, blah, blah, blah. And talking about like, from a general point of view, because of course, ideally you could find a mentor you could find like somebody you can actually talk to through the way.

Zeke: Your husband [00:43:00] obviously could be a mentor. Is he? Do you actually use him as a resource and a mentor?

Jennifer: Right now uh, not that much. He has been fundamental in my path. Uh, But at this point we are more like teammates right now. In the sense that we are working on this app together is mostly me because he also has like his day job. But he's also like the more senior person that I can talk to when, um, I don't know, like um, I want to think over things or I'm not really sure, like, okay. I have like A, B and C. I want to see if there's something I'm missing there um, to go with one or the other or whatever. And sometimes honestly, like there's just this one little bug that you haven't figured out. And you're like, there's something I'm not seeing, I need a second pair of eyes.

Insight: Find another pair of eyes

Zeke: That's an everyday occurrence in software, right? Like you're sitting there. It's like, I can't, I can't like what is wrong with me? Why can't I figure this out?

Jennifer: Yeah.

Zeke: Yeah. Nice. Nice. Um, Did you have anybody else who kind of played a [00:44:00] role in um, supporting your, your transition, your kind of growth here?

Jennifer: honestly, I feel like in the path after deciding to become an engineer, I was like very autonomous, of course. Like I couldn't do it without like all these amazing people that were putting out all these amazing resources.

Insight: User focused engineering

Jennifer: Um, What I think like one of my most influential persons was actually before I did that. And it was um, my first job, like in, in the industry before I was not, um, like deciding to become a pro developer. And it was this manager that I had, and I worked with her for many years in different roles because later, like she became our major customer when we created the company.

And she was like this person that was very, very user focused. Her whole goal was to make applications that were [00:45:00] amazing for customers to use. Which sometimes made it hard, you know, because sometimes she will be like one day, say some were like, this is so hard. Like why could you just drop it? Um, But, and also like, she won't have these eyes to look at things from all angles. And I think I like working with her for like, for all these years actually shaped me a little bit like that.

You know, how many developers have this reputation that they don't care about the product they just want to code or whatever. Which I disagree with them on many levels. But I also think um, like that experience made me a very, rounded engineer, in the sense that I cannot separate the, like looking at things from the user perspective, from like being the developer. Of course, when you are like actually working on it, you are the developer, right?

Um, But I can kind of like switch between these mindsets very easily. And I do it a lot. So I that's also why I was saying before, like I always end up like finding [00:46:00] things that people didn't find before in my teams.

Zeke: Thinking like a user helps you find the gaps in the engineering.

Starting in tech support shifted the whole way that I approached building software, because it's like, you want to build it so you don't have a tech support call. Where you still have the customer, but you don't have to talk to them on the phone.

Jennifer: I would love that for people in the industry where developing like that, do you know, like, even as a user of so many applications, because we all are, I mean, everyday I'm like, why, why? Like we have the potential to make the world's smooth and nice and we don't.

Insight: Amazon for the pedigree

Zeke: Yeah.

You talked about where you did that first internship and you got that internship job, even though you choked. But later on you got hired at Amazon and Amazon has a very strong interviewing culture. How did you prepare for that interview and what was it like?

Jennifer: I [00:47:00] hated that interview so much.

Zeke: you hated that interview?

Jennifer: No. So basically like, you know at that time, I was working at a startup and everything was fine. Uh, The team was amazing. Uh, I was, you know, having all these opportunities at the company. So I didn't, I really, really didn't have a complaint or a reason to want to change when Amazon approached me.

And my thought at that time, it's like, okay, you know, I'm a career changer. If I actually got to work in Amazon, that will be, that will kind of, you know, balance my CV in a way that it's not because it's like this huge tech company that is notorious because the interview process is so hard. And like, I mean, they are, they are a name in the industry. Right. So I felt like maybe that could made up for the fact that I actually don't have a degree. I should totally give it a try.

The interview process, it's kind of nice. They send you a lot of materials. I remember the recruiter that I was in touch with, she even sending me some, sent me some like blog posts that [00:48:00] I found very interesting. There was a lot of things about like the leadership principles, but then they also like highlighted like, Hey, get ready for like um, algorithms, systems designs, blah, blah, blah. So I think I had maybe like two or three months before my actual interview.

And it was emotionally hard because I didn't think I could get it because, you know, actually before that my husband, who was one of the people that I admire the most in like the field, he already applied to Amazon, but he didn't pass the interview.

So I was like, if he didn't pass the interview, there is no way on earth. I'm going to pass this interview. I don't even know why I'm doing this, but at the same time, I want to try Um, because you know. if you don't try, you don't know. Uh, So because I was so convinced that I couldn't pass the interview, it was very hard to like make time during these two, three months to a study algorithms on the side.

So I was kind of doing it, but at the same time, like be like, ah, but [00:49:00] you know, like my friends are outside and having fun and it's like getting warm in Berlin and it's so nice and beautiful outside.

They actually flew me to Madrid for that. Uh, They were flying like people from different countries or to have the interview.

And I remember that I, I got there, uh, at the night before my interview and I had stomach pain. I was so nervous because I really hate it, when I'm in situations that make me feel embarassed. Being in an interview and not being able to answer questions, is very embarrassing. So I was like, so mortified by the thought that I got a stomach pain and the next day I was like, I don't want to go, I don't want to go.

But at the same time I was thinking, well, I mean, they already like flew me here. They paid for the hotel. It was able to be like, definitely not nice for me not to even show up other place.

Insight: Emotional exhaustion can be good

Jennifer: So I go, and I think that that was actually that made a, had an interesting effect on my mindset because [00:50:00] when I go to the interview, I am already at that point of like emotional exhaustion because I was doubting myself so much.

I'm like, you know what, there's nothing else to lose if you're really lost in your mind. I know that sounds bad, but it was like, I was very relaxed because I, at that point I wasn't like expecting anything there. And I think. I mean that, that is not how I recommend people to get ready for interviews. But for me, that actually,

Zeke: Don't drive yourself to an emotionally state.

Jennifer: Don't do that!

Sleep well. Um, Actually like a study their stuff, but anyways, like, because I actually knew this, I was just too nervous, but actually giving up kind of made me, made me relax. So the interviews ended up being very interesting and very fun. The interviewers were, nice. We ended up like more than, you know, just like an interview, which I sit there and you asked me a bunch of questions.

It was [00:51:00] more like conversations. So it actually felt like it was, um, five uh, four interviews. If I remember correctly and everything felt kind of like, you know, like we are working on something together, so they will ask me questions. I will ask them questions. Uh, If I didn't know something, I will do, you know, Owners, but kind of like my hypothesis along the way, like, okay, I don't know this, but, um, I will imagine it works this way or like we could maybe start exploring this path or whatever.

So I mean, it was nice. I was, I was kind of relaxed all the time because, I felt like I didn't have anything to lose.

At the end of the interview. I couldn't tell. I couldn't be like, ah, yes I pass. Or yes, I failed. I was completely clueless, but I was still very, very surprised about a few weeks later when they come and they're like, "Hey, Jennifer we want to offer you a position."

And like, "Do you have the right name?"

Uh, "Yeah, we are calling like Jennifer Cruz."

I'm like, "Yeah, that's me." I was completely shocked. I was like, "What?!"

Insight: Amazon leans into behavioral questions

Zeke: This is [00:52:00] interesting, cause I think most people, you know, find four Amazon interviews to be kind of exhausting. And I think most developers in particular, because the focus of Amazon interviews are much more on the leadership principles then on the tech side, right?

So people are expecting like, oh, I'm going to do a lot of leet coding and an Amazon interview half the time at least is spent on the behavioral stuff. Right. And then you can ask them, like, tell me about a time when, you know, you had a challenging interaction with one of your peers and you had to negotiate, you know um, a difference of opinions.

And they're kind of like, "What!? Leet code always wins."

" Nope, that's not going to get you in."

It sounds to me like you kind of liked that part of the interview better. Like the, you actually were able to relax and kind of get into that.

Right. So, because the leadership interviews don't require you to talk about code at all. They just talk about how you know, how to work in the world.

Jennifer: [00:53:00] Yeah. I remember I read like this one LinkedIn post that somebody like some Amazon employee posted. For me, it made so much sense, like everything around this leadership principles, and it helped me prepare a lot because I could like, think about the experiences I've had. We will ask you about this principles.

So it gave me time to reflect on in that area. Um, I felt like I was kind of ready. I was more nervous about the technical stuff. There was also the systems design thing and that's honestly, because I was what was like most intimidating for me, that's what I remember the most.

Zeke: Interesting. Amazon is very explicit when they send you the interview packet. They're like, here are our leadership principles, if you didn't look on the website first. And we will ask you about these things, because these are important.

And of course, you know, since you got hired, you know that in fact they don't just ask about it in the interview, you're going to use them, like, every day in everything you do, the leadership principles just kind of are like sprinkled into every single doc.

So [00:54:00] they're not kidding.

Jennifer: Yeah, no, yeah, that's true. But I also find that very funny in the, like, for people getting ready for the interviews, because they're so explicit about it and people still put it on the side, like people it's like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's easy stuff I don't have. I don't even have to think about that.

Just read it. Like it's just 15 minutes of your time. And maybe like, think about that when you're like, I don't know, on your bike or on the bus or whatever.

Zeke: It's much more likely that Amazon as an employer will take a risk on somebody that has weak technical feedback and strong leadership principles, then weak leadership principles and strong technical, because the technical stuff is all very teachable and the leadership principles are much harder to teach, you know?

So if you don't have a strong sense of ownership or like that you don't care about users to begin with, it's much harder to teach those things than it is to teach people like, Hey, there's a new framework and you [00:55:00] kind of were, you were sloppy in your JavaScript syntax, I mean, the linter will catch that.

But we don't have a linter for good leadership.

Insight: no linter for leadership

Jennifer: Yeah. And even like when it comes to the technical stuff, I think you actually need a lot of like mental flexibility to jump on new stuff and learn new stuff. So it's not like that's relevant that you are, you know, like super amazing with this one language and that's it because maybe that's not even the language you're going to be using in your first project.

Zeke: That's right. Amazon actually, all the big tech, but Amazon in particular, generalists are favored. Right. So they don't, they're almost never hiring for any particular technology or technology stack. You know, you can say, Hey, Amazon uses a lot of Java, but it also uses everything else. And depending on what your team is,

you know, doing then, you know, and a lot of it's all custom, right?

So even the Java stuff that Amazon uses is all their internal frameworks that you can't [00:56:00] learn until you get in there. And you and you, those, those frameworks are the ones that you have to use while you're there, or will most likely use. So you better be ready to learn a bunch of other stuff.

Did you end up working with any of the people that you interviewed with?

Jennifer: No, I mean, when I did the interview process um, my only choices were in terms of like cities, like in which city do you want to work? Um, And there were a bunch of interesting stuff there actually. Like I think for me, the most interesting period was in Madrid, but things that I didn't really want to move.

Yeah.

Zeke: Was there a time when you thought you weren't going to make it?

Insight: Mega-imposter syndrome

Jennifer: All the time,

Zeke: All of the time?!

Jennifer: All of the time.

Zeke: So does that mean today? You think like I can't make it as a software engineer.

Jennifer: No, I think I'm starting to feel more like comfortable in my skin in in my role, uh, in what I'm doing. Uh, But I I've [00:57:00] been notorious for like, self-doubting myself. Too much, even more than the situation, for example, even what I told you during the interview. I mean, if I really didn't have the skill in the first place, I, I wouldn't even come close to passing. Right?

Uh, But I'm still like suffering so much through the process and even like work, even as I was working there all the time, I was like feeling, you know, like this imposter syndrome.

What I think now, working in many companies and in many projects you are very often responsible for like very small stuff and very specific stuff.

Uh, But right now that I'm like thinking about the project as a whole and like doing a bunch of stuff and actually even working, with, uh, one person that is just studying in the industry. I'm starting like, to actually being able to appreciate what I can do and being able to think of myself more as a developer that I've been all these years.

I honestly like [00:58:00] have to work on um, on a regular basis on myself.

Zeke: Me too, by the way.

Jennifer: Really?

Zeke: Oh, absolutely. I mean,

Well, to be honest, it's because I'm constantly trying to a little bit, re-imagine what I'm capable of myself, right? Part of imposter syndrome is really just the sense of being outside of your comfort zone. And anytime you're learning something new or, challenging yourself, you're kind of naturally outside your comfort zone.

So, and this is different than I'm going to say kind of sub fundamental skepticism or self doubt. Like, there's this other thing that eats at you, which is insecurity. Anytime you challenging yourself, you should expect imposter syndrome and it's healthy.

They always talk about like fake it till you make it right. But as long as you have the fundamentals there and you're serious about it, this is okay.

Jennifer: Actually, it's funny that you said say that about the comfort zone, because sometimes I feel like, "Comfort zone? What is that?"

Insight: Growing like babies, plateaus

Zeke: Right, right. I've been trying to recognize is that it's okay [00:59:00] to plateau in the comfort zone to let yourself grow a little bit, to fill the space that you're in.

I'll use an example here because I have kids. And when, if you watch babies grow, they do this thing, like especially little babies. When they're first really getting active, they plump and then stretch, plump and then stretch. And they can actually do it almost overnight, they grow so fast.

So they're building, you know, eating a lot, they're building some calories up so that they can go through their next growth spurt. But they're actually pretty comfortable in the plateau, because they know they're going to have to learn how to crawl soon. And the crawling is going to require a lot of calories. It required a lot of juice, right. So it's okay to just kind of like roll around on the floor for a little bit.

And then you see that at various times where I think as a career too, it's like, okay, I just got into my job and I'm totally out of my comfort zone.

I have to learn all this stuff like this. And once you kind of get over that and you actually know how to do [01:00:00] your job and you know, the environment and you know, the people you're working with, there's a lot of advantages for kind of riding that plateau for a while. Not striving for the next level, not trying to learn a million new frameworks.

I actually think there's almost an addiction problem like that people have about like, if you've been striving the whole time that you don't you're, you don't feel okay coasting for a bit. I know that I don't, but I've tried to become better at it. You know? Like you have to make friends with the plateau in order to make friends with the imposter syndrome.

That's when I kind of think like, sometimes you just coast, let it roll, let the energy build, let things come to you a little bit more. And then, and then you're like, when you're full up, you can say, "Now I'm ready to go tackle the next big thing."

And because you've been cruising in plateau mode for a while,

Jennifer: Yeah.

Zeke: You know, it's possible to make that next jump, right?

Like you say, like I'm here, I'm juiced up and I know what the other side of it will look [01:01:00] like. It'll look like I have this other set of skills and I'll be able to be comfortable again. Um, Even if you're not the kind of person that is naturally, comfortable.

I think, I think some people really like to just like check off the list and then they just do the thing every day. People are like, that are not as successful both in terms of like their career arcs are not very good, but also they are frustrated because um, they always feel behind. Because you're always kind of like the industry changes so much that you kind of have to be ready, even if you're in a plateau to be, you know, making your next growth step.

Jennifer: Yeah, no, I really liked that idea that about the plateau and like growing as a baby. You're like, okay, I'm actually ready to be stimulated again.

Um, But something about the last thing you said that I, um, find, I don't know, funny, uh, you made me, you reminded me of uh, these friends that I have, and he was also a dev, but he was working [01:02:00] in a team with some devs that, I don't know, they were like in their fifties. So they were older, they had so many years of experience and they were, they were actually like what you just described, you know, like people that they learned their stuff and that's what they were using and that's the end of it.

And then you have like this new, young dev, that has so many like new ideas and so many things he want to try. It was just like a clash of generations, which is not to say, like, I'm not saying like every person in their fifties is, you know, like very set in their, in their ways. Um, But you have that in every field, right?

Like some people that are like already very seniors and they're like, I've already been doing this for so long this way, there's no reason to change.

Insight: what intrinsic motivation?

Zeke: I've been trying to find more ways to recognize myself and the accomplishments I've made than just my career and my title. And, you know, like it's, it's, it comes back for me to intrinsic motivation. You know, what [01:03:00] are the parts that are intrinsically motivating? Software for me, the parts where there were intrinsically motivating is, you know, like debugging and cracking problems and, you know, building things and stuff like this is just fundamentally very satisfying.

But I think it's really important that people align their intrinsic motivations with their careers.

Do you know, um, you know, what you find rewarding? Like, that kind of spans not just uh, software and tech, but also your previous career iterations.

Jennifer: So I think for me learning itself, it's just fascinating. Like I remember when Coursera came out, and then we just found like this new website where you could like, learn so many stuff on so many fields. I went crazy.

I, I think I signed up to like 20 courses at the same time, which didn't make any sense because there's no humane way to make that. And then I was just dealing with like the [01:04:00] loading, all these, all these videos and be like, when I have time, I will make this. And I'm just going to like start with two now and like make the others later. Of course, that didn't work. Um, I was just like occupying a lot of memory in my computer, but it's just, me, it's just like, I don't know.

I remember at least one person that was in like, I never read fiction because like real life is so fascinating and in a way that's the way I feel not about fiction. I love fiction, but I also feel like there's so much to learn in every field. And it's just so interesting. Um, Now when it comes to software itself, for me, it goes in waves, you know, like, if I was like just the whole year, just like learning software stuff, and just like, cruising on what I knew and learned and then like learning some other software stuff and that's it. I'm pretty sure I will get, um, maybe bored at some point, like overwhelmed. I need, let's say, um, I need like my life [01:05:00] to have different phases, like variety.

You know, that's also in my free time, I'm not necessarily reading about software. I love to read fiction. I love to read, uh, nonfiction books uh, especially like animal in the field of surprise, surprise biology and like biology related stuff. Um, I don't know. Politics, philosophy, all of that. Yeah.

But it's also, I think something that um, helps me in the field because as we've already said, like you always need to keep learning something at some point. Like even if You cruise for a bit, at some point you do need to learn something else.

Insight: what is adulting anyway?

Zeke: You know um, for me it was, it's also the, what you're talking about, these different areas of exploration stuff. Um, At the same time as I was building my career, I was also building my family and I, I found it fascinating how much overlap there was. And so um, [01:06:00] I just, because you know, like raising children, you learn a lot about development.

You know, this is personal development, education, how people work. But like, I'm all, I'll just say, when you watch like four year olds in the preschool playground, and you have to really pay attention to what they're doing. And then you go watch, you know, teams of people and they're having a discussion about, you know, what to build in the sandbox, right?

Or what to, how to organize, who's going to be on the swing and what, which order and stuff like that. And they they're having real, I mean, these are intense discussions that can actually kind of go completely off the rails, even at times, you know, like that's like, it totally works at some point. And then it goes off the rails and have to escalate and then you go to work and you're like watching, you know, this team debate, you know, what system they're going to build and what the architecture is.

And it's like, I mean, almost the exact same behavior. The, the [01:07:00] adults have much more complicated language and have much more, uh, detailed rationalizations to validate their own experience.

You know, kids will just be say like, I just want the swing, you know, they're just like, it's my turn. I don't need to explain it beyond that. It is my turn.

You know, where as a person who says, "You know, like these are things that rational people will do this, and the logic says, like." Adults complicated stories, but in the end they're like, It's my

Jennifer: it's like, like sugar syntax on top of, about

Zeke: Yeah, exactly. Except for it's it's non sugar syntax.

It's like all this, you know, wrappers upon wrappers, like, you know, it actually, it's more like it's the architecture that has 12 layers and you only needed one, you know? And that's what adults are like. They're always like, oh, there, I got 12 layers to explain what I'm doing.

And you're like, you only needed one. He said, it's my turn.

Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, like, I've been thinking about that a lot over the years and I don't even know why we call ourselves adults at some point. I'm like,[01:08:00]

Zeke: Uh,

Jennifer: Like, really? I think, like I had so many expectations of what an adult would be like and like what to think. I think I'm realizing that, we never get there because it's like, kind of, you know, I don't know, somehow that's in the imagination. I feel we are, we keep being driven by pretty much the same stuff, all our lives.

Outro: Interview

Zeke: Well, I think that's a good place to leave it. We're always thinking we're going to make it to adulthood, but we never do. It was really great talking to you, Jennifer. Uh, I hope you had a good time. Any, anything, any last words you want to leave?

Jennifer: Uh, No last words are scary. I want to say so much more, so let's leave it open. Um, thank you for inviting me.

Zeke: Well, perfect. Thank you very much, Jennifer. And uh, hope you have a good rest of your day.

Jennifer: Thank you. You too.[01:09:00]

Zeke: Thank you so much for listening. I am Zeke Arany-Lucas. Please find show notes and more episodes at my website: blog.introspectivedeveloper.com.