P2P Podcast Series: Mais Aroq from Accounting to Coding

Mais Aroq (LinkedIn) was trying on all the hats in accounting and none of them fit. But code was love at first click. Mais left a secure accounting career in Tel Aviv then moved to Berlin to join a bootcamp and become a developer.

But success needed more than a bootcamp and she has a great approach for anyone approaching interviews.

Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Overcast, or your favorite platform.

Zeke Arany-Lucas is a developer, leader, and consultant from Seattle, living and working in Berlin since 2014. He has been in the tech industry for more than 25 years, starting with web browser development in the 90s, including long stints at both Microsoft and Amazon in multiple leadership roles. You can also follow him on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.

Artwork by Emre Aydogan & Laura Diezler — ©️2022 Zeke Arany-Lucas

Read the full transcript

Zeke: Hello and welcome to the Introspective Developer. My name is Zeke Arany-Lucas, and I am talking with software developers who started their careers without a computer science degree.

We find out what they have learned and how they learned it. I am convinced that building this best software engineering teams requires improving diversity by hiring more entry level devs from outside the traditional university graduate pipelines.

In today's episode, we'll be talking to Mais Aroq.

Mais, welcome to the show. Just to get started, can you tell me a little bit about you and what you do?

Mais: Absolutely. So, hi. Hi everyone. My name is Mais. I started my journey in the software engineering, uh, around one year and a half ago. And currently I'm working at Forto as, uh, in a junior position. And, uh, you have been there for six months and so far it's going well.

Zeke: Yeah. What were you doing before you became a software developer?

Mais: I studied accounting and economics and, uh, it was working in companies like Deloitte, an investment house. And there, I was introduced to software development by leading a project, a financial project to calculate the lifetime value for some clients in the investment house. And then I had to work with, uh, some developers to develop this model.

And I was introduced to Python at the beginning. I was really interested in this language and I wanted to understand it by myself. So I took a online course and I started to try to learn programming by myself. I fall in love with it, and I started to build my own smaller project, watching more YouTube videos.

And I decided to take my career another step and start my career as a, software developer.

Zeke: That's a lot of magic going on there. So you, you fell in love with software development kind of by, was it like other people doing it? How did you, how did you kind of know what were the things that kind of triggered you?

[00:02:27] Insight: Programming is creative, nurtures alternatives

Mais: as, uh, at the beginning it was the creativity. There are multiple ways to solve one solution, one problem. So, you can be as much, as much as creative as you want. And this is what made me fall in love with it coming from accounting, it's kind of having one approach to one problem and it, it kind of also, uh, repeating itself most of the time.

So creativity wasn't existing at least at my, at my previous job. And this is what made me fall in love with programming.

Zeke: That's that's pretty awesome. I was just laughing, cause the fact that there's multiple solutions to every problem, you could say is one of the problems with software development.

Oh, we've got to solve this problem. It's like, I like the way I solve it. Next developers, like I should just rewrite that and, you know, write it the way I like it.

You know, there's this constant kind of, you know, rewrite and exchange. Whereas like you say, in other disciplines, there's one way. You learn it in the school or you learn it in the industry certification and everybody does it like that, right?

Mais: yeah, right?

Let's you also can build, or you can put your fingerprint and then you can build your own style, which I think distinguish programming from other professions.

Zeke: Yeah. Yeah. it's a beautiful thing. I love that part. It's much more like writing in this capacity, and you can sense like, oh, that person, you know, they have this style of writing a minimalist style, the variable names are all short. And there's other persons like, 20 word variable names. You're like, why is this person typing so much when they're writing code?

Um, yeah. I love that part too.

Mais: As well, besides to the infinite learning It's you can always learn new things and you'll have to learn new things always. So you never feel rusty or just out of shape. And I think this is what also makes programming a really good profession to someone who love learning and love, reading new stuff, and love to try new technologies.

And this is always available in the, in the programming.

Zeke: It's not just available. It's pretty much required. Right. You know,

Mais: Exactly.

Zeke: if you don't like learning, you should probably stay away from becoming a software developer. I'm curious what that first project was. What was the first project that kind of, um, where you really engaged?

Mais: Uh, it was a guessing game, a small guessing game. So it was like calculating taking, like from one to 100 and it keeps us multiple, uh, two and multiple. And until it gets into the answer that you have in mind, and it's absolutely simple, very simple a project.

It took me too much, too much to build, but it was really exciting that, oh, I build it from the scratch and it's actually working. Not mentioning that I was so excited when I just print my first Hello World, uh, on my computer.

Zeke: What language did you write the guessing game in?

Mais: It was in Python.

Zeke: Yeah. Was it command line or did you have some kind of UX for it?

Mais: No, no. It was only the command line, like in a very simple.

It's just made me feel like I built something from scratch. If it's that small, then if I start with that small, I can maybe build bigger stuff.

[00:06:04] Insight: tried conventional, but it didn' feel right

Zeke: So you went to school for accounting and you got a degree?

Mais: Uh, accounting and economics.

Zeke: And how long would, were you working like that?

Mais: Well, I worked with my degree for two years, which basically was kind of the internship that I had to do. And, um, I do it in two different places. I tried many fields because accounting has many, many, uh, different fields. And I was, I was always doubting myself. That is it the right profession for me or not.

So, okay. Let's try this field. And after trying for a few months, I didn't feel connected. And, uh, I switched to another field and I have to say that it's always was, I always had the doubts, but they never had the courage to admit it. And they always wanted to give it a try. But eventually after introducing myself to programming, it just felt right.

Zeke: That's so nice. Um, so you, then you taught yourself with this one program. Did you get any certifications or what program? What actually, what tools did you use to learn to become a developer?

Mais: As a bit beginning, I took a Python for beginners from Udemy and it was like a 50 hours course. I have, I was doing it every day after work. It was like building small projects, like the game I mentioned.

And when I finished the course, I felt like I went to do more and I went to understand some basics or logics behind how, like, I didn't, I didn't want to only do, and listen, I also wanted to understand why you were doing this exact land with you and not doing that. And then it's just, lead to another, uh, Udemy courses and another YouTube videos. But as I start as started in the Udemy and it was nice since they treat you as a beginner, that you absolutely know nothing in computer science.

And it gave me security, that I don't feel overwhelmed because I don't know that. And even if I had something that I didn't actually understand it, I, I believe Google also, uh, do the job.

Zeke: Yeah, we all rely on Google. Um, so, when did you start applying for jobs?

Mais: First, when I took the courage to quit my job as an accountant. I put my whole focus on learning programming and, uh, at the beginning it started with what actually the market needs and require. And what the other ways I can learn and prove that I'm serious about this switch. So, uh, I went toward, uh, bootcamps. I found the Le Wagon bootcamp in Berlin.

Zeke: That's the one, that looks like "luh wagon" to me. But it's actually something else because it's French, right?

Mais: Yes.

Zeke: So from the point where you decided, to the point where you quit your job was how long?

Mais: Well, as I mentioned, I started to learn programming while I'm doing my job. And when I, when I quit, it took me like two months to sign up for the bootcamp and move to Berlin, uh, to start the bootcamp. Uh, of course also in in-between I still, uh, like I did my research for, uh, job hunting. And what language is, is the market is requiring and what kind of, uh, skills I need.

[00:09:55] Insight: research the market to find the skills

Zeke: That's smart. What did you find out?

Mais: Well, I found out that, at least when I did the research, I saw most of the relevant positions require JavaScript.

Uh, so in this tool month's gap, um, of course I was applying to Le Wagon. It actually took around two or three weeks until I got my spots because I had to do two interviews. They wanted to test some skills if I have. And one of the skills that they wanted to check is how fast and how efficient I can search them, something in Google, which was yes.

And there was a really, really funny way to test it, like, they just asked me Google "what is Ruby". And for someone who doesn't know programming, he would just think about the Ruby about the stone, the gem, and not about the Ruby language. Um, So what's basically was my answer is like directly, "Oh yeah, it's kind of a stone." And they say, "No, we meant the Ruby language and why the Ruby language was named as Ruby."

This is one of the tests they had to do in the interview. Uh, but it was this smooth, they just was checking, uh, of course, um, soft skills. They haven't checked any technical skills because they understand that I have no technical background.

Zeke: How did you choose Le Wagon?

Mais: Yeah. So I have to say that there's a few factors. Uh, how many days, I need to finish the bootcamp because also time was a big factor for me. Uh, the price and the languages and like the syllabus that we are learning. And according to their syllabus, they were more or less matching what the market requires.

Zeke: How did you isolate the jobs that would have the requirements you were most interested in?

Mais: Well, I was looking first for internships because I believe internship is a very good beginning for someone who has no background on computer science. And unfortunately couldn't find too much internships, but the one I could find they required what the bootcamp was basically providing and also was looking for junior positions.

And I absolutely was shooting into different, too many different directions. I never had a preference about front-end back-end full-stack because again, I don't know what is that? I just went to the, see where, what is the most possibility that I can be accepted. And from then, I can always switch. It's not like, uh, dead end and I believe that you can never know what you exactly want until you actually try.

Especially for someone who never worked in tech.

Zeke: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, once you get your foot in the door, you get to see a little bit more of what interests you and maybe where you want to go. When you joined and you met the other people in your bootcamp, um, do you think that the, the criteria helped shape the cohort, the group into a kind of more, a stronger group of people to learn with.

Mais: it's hard to say because all of us came from completely different backgrounds, absolutely different. And they can understand since all of us is coming from non-technical background, there is no one test that can combine us. I believe you see what, who really interested in becoming a developer is after the course who is trying to get a job in tech, or who's trying to get the job in a different field.

[00:13:48] Insight: you have to try, in order to know for sure

Mais: This is the only, the only time that you can tell that, okay, we want to be developers or we don't want

Zeke: Did you have visibility into what the people did afterwards? Like three, you kind of like part of some group where you all chat about what you're doing next.

Mais: Yes. Actually we even still in touch after one year, we still have a WhatsApp group. And, um, I still meeting with some of them. Um, but as, as far as I know So far, most of them didn't end up in a developer job, but also in tech, like product management, product design.

Zeke: So most of them did not end up as developers?

Mais: Yes. And also the bootcamp is never only about becoming a developer because they also give them opportunities to, if you want to become a product design that is like kind of career week where they bring so many companies that required any kind of positions in tech, which also includes product management, product design.

So you can also join the bootcamp, knowing that you don't want to be a developer, but you want to be in tech. But it's always nice to have the knowledge about what, what tech is and like what is a code? So when you are in your job and you're talking to developers, you can understand what they're talking about.

Zeke: I know a lot of the people who were product managers had CS backgrounds when I was in Microsoft and Amazon. So it was pretty common even then to go the whole university degree and ended up not writing code, even with a comp-sci background.

Okay, how big was the group of people?

Mais: As I recall, we were about 27 people.

Zeke: Okay. That sounds kind of normal classroom size, I think. From that group of people, how many do you think actually went on to became become developers?

Mais: I think may be ten-ish 10 or nine. I'm not, I don't really have, uh, the exact number.

Zeke: Yeah, sure. One third is, is good. And, um, from the people who didn't from the people who did and didn't, what would you say is the difference?

Mais: I think, um, first, well, it is the, is the goal, what you w where do you want to, uh, what do you want to achieve? And many of them, many of them, I also assume that they went to this direction just because of COVID and many people have lost their jobs.

So they needed to find a different alternative. So I can imagine that after COVID, they, if they, if they did like their jobs, they just will go back to their jobs back. Uh, I think that was a big factor to decide what the, what do you want to do after the bootcamp?

[00:16:44] Insight: dopamine makes people do extra work

Mais: But I believe that people who actually ended up in coding, you could see from the beginning that they actually shine during the exercises, they put all the afar to them, the exercises, and not only to do the exercise as they, as it's required, but also to refactor the code, to look for stuff that we didn't actually learn the bootcamp and apply it in the exercise.

Or also there was an extra exercises. Like if you want to do extra hours, you can do it. And people were sometimes doing it. And I think they are just like, as I did, like, I just fell in love with the programming and that you want it more. And when you are in the very beginning, you're just so hungry and you are just proud of yourself that you are even doing all this switching from your old job to the new job.

And you just want to be the best in it. I mean, if this is also a big factor to decide if you are becoming a developer after the bootcamp or not.

Zeke: Reminds me, um, there was, there was a point when I was interviewing people and I was trying to figure out why, I really would vote for people and say, yeah, we should hire them. And the most consistent attribute was a sense of curiosity. So when people were curious on their own and meant that the conversations I had with them were just far more interesting, right.

Because then they're like, oh, well I took this class or I started looking at this and then I got curious. And so I ended up building my own website. And so it wasn't part of the class. They were just curious, like, how does that work? And not because it was assigned, because it was interesting.

Mais: And I also believe that, even if you want to become a developer and you don't have the ability to go to these bootcamps and pay, uh, for this bootcamp, you can absolutely find many things online.

In my case, since I moved to from different country, they didn't have also the computer science degree and I wanted to find a job as soon as possible. I feel like I need some certificate to show how serious I am. And why I deserve a visa sponsorship and why I deserve this job.

So for me, it was like more kind of showing how serious I want this job, but of course, I believe that you can do it with, with, or without the bootcamp, because you can find many, many online, boot camps, or many YouTube videos, or many from also Udemy, uh, certificates that can show that you are serious.

Zeke: Well, I think we've talked about three things, that are maybe hard to get otherwise. The certificate is one, right? Like that that's some sense of, I don't know, authority that you did something real, like you're should be taken seriously. That makes sense.

That's also a university gives you that too, right? Like that's another reason to go to school. Um, but I was thinking that you, you also met some other people. Do you think that was, uh, to think that was valuable part of the bootcamp for you?

Mais: Absolutely, I build the really nice networking. And as I say that, if some of the people I'm still, uh, in connect connecting with, and I can say that also it helped me by, uh, in my job hunt, by knowing what's kind of not only requirement, but also to be able to know how worth I am and that when you are with the job hunt with other people, you know, oh, this guy got this offer.

So try to. I'm not saying like the try not to accept less, but like try to aim for that or not less than that, or like it helps you to know how worth you are in the market.

[00:20:40] Insight: calibrate the market compensation

Zeke: Yeah, calibration.

Mais: Yes.

Zeke: Yeah. I mean, these businesses are all calibrating against each other too. Right. So as, as a, as a person who wants to be in this marketplace, you need to calibrate, especially if you don't want to be exploited.

So the other thing that, you know, I kind of think, you know, a bootcamp should provide is I'll say some kinds of resources that are hard to find otherwise. Do you think that the bootcamp gave you that?

[00:21:06] Insight: need to shine after bootcamp

Mais: I don't, I don't recall that I use, oh, the resources of the bootcamp after the bootcamp. And I think everyone also can find resources really easily, nowadays. You just need to know what do you want to learn?

And in my case, the network around me and the people in my social circle helped me a lot in this matter. Because for example, after I finished the bootcamp, I know that I want to be a developer, but did I want to be back-end or full stack or front end?

Because the bootcamp give you the very basics. And if you want to find a job, you need to do an extra, to just shine between all the bootcamp graduates. And for me, for example, I know that I went back-end because while I was working in the projects and the bootcamp, I liked more the back-end part, but again, doing a project in the bootcamp is not like working in a big company and a, an existing code.

But, um, again, the social circle helped me alot to, okay, if you want to be a back-end, then you should go to NodeJS and start to learn NodeJS. If you want to be front-end, then you need to go for React. And in, in, in this case, I chose back-end and I started to work on my NodeJS skills. And I remember other people chose front-ends and started to work on React.

And it was like a really sensitive point because you need to learn as, as fast as possible to find the job that you want. But at the same time, you are afraid that the job market are not offering what you're learning.

Zeke: Mm.

Mais: And I was also like, even if I was focusing on the back-end, I was also applying for front-end because I didn't want to judge in a very early stage.

And I, I told myself, okay, you can also get that front end position. And if you see yourself more as a back-end, you can switch after few months of experience. But I never rejected any, any kind of opportunity for a junior position or internship, even if it was against what I believe. I, I, you want. And th this was the most sensitive point after the bootcamp, but it's really hard to know what you should learn after.

And if you don't have, well, if you don't have people to help you with this decision, it will be more challenging. So this is where the advantage of the networking from the bootcamp come, because now you will discuss with people, okay, what do you want to do after the bootcamp? And they will say, oh, I heard that I need to learn React to be a front-end developer.

So let's take a course together or let's get together and start to study. So you get even more encouraged. So this is one of the big advantages for the bootcamp. You see where people is going, and if it's suitable for you, you would just also go with the flow.

Zeke: Was there a particular person who helped you at a spot where you're like at, at risk or almost got stuck?

Mais: Well, in this case it was my boyfriend. He's a senior software engineer and he helped me a lot to know what they should do after the bootcamp. And also because I took a slightly different way of the rest of the people who were in the bootcamp, because most of the people took React course right after the bootcamp, and I went to NodeJS.

It felt for me, some kind of, oh, risky, what I'm doing, why I'm so different. Why like I'm doing that in a different way. Let's adjust, go for React and then switch, maybe.

I did have this moment where I doubted it, my, my decision, but I believe that the job market is very wide that you can apply even for a job that you don't hit all the boxes.

[00:25:06] Insight: can't hit all the JD boxes, so be a sponge

Mais: And you start learning as you are working because you're also applying for an internship or a junior position. And part of your job is actually study and learn. The expectation is not like when they are expecting a mid-level or senior level, of course you need to hit some boxes and have some technical basics to start, but it's never too late to change technology or learn new technology because I believe the juniors are like, has a mind, like a sponge that you can, they can just absorb as much as they can, and then they can decide what they want to go from there.

And I think this is the advantage of being a junior.

[00:25:49] Insight: first interviews are frustrating

Zeke: Tell me a little bit about how you, what the interviews were like and stuff like that. Did you like, did you get your first job that you interviewed?

Mais: uh, no, I wish I had, I get to the job after nine or 10 interviews. Of course I get so many rejects even before the interview. Like I didn't reach the interview level and I have to say that it was one of the most difficult time that, in the last two years.

And it's absolutely frustration, frustration, frustrated. Sometimes I was looking at job description and they are asking stuff that is impossible to know as a junior, or they are asking for two to three years of experience from a junior.

And so for me, seeing all this stuff right after the bootcamp, it was so a frustration frustrated. And I, I, uh, I, I understand after that, it's like, everyone feels the same, but for me it always felt like I'm not going to find a job. I would never find that job. Or maybe I should take another bootcamp, look for a different alternative, or just go assign for a computer science degree in the university and start all over again.

But eventually it just worked for me. And I have to say that I went to many interviews where I embarrassed myself a lot.

Zeke: I love this part. I love this part. So I'll just say by my first interview, um, I also embarrassed myself.

I was not even applying for a developer position because I hadn't kind of gotten my skills up there, I was applying for a position in QA as a tester. But it was the first time anybody had ever asked me real questions in an interview.

So before that had always been like, Hey, do you have a car? Can you work late? When can you start? Do you have a criminal record? Like, those are the questions in here is like, how would you test this dialog box?

And I got so excited, that I just started blathering like a crazy person. I mean, I'm pretty sure his eyes got as big as saucers and he was all like, stepping back from the whiteboard is I, you know, had my arms all spinning.

So I tell me what's, uh, what's a good story about, uh, where it didn't go the way you wanted.

[00:28:20] Insight: prepare for some embarassment

Mais: Well, uh, there was this company that I applied to and I didn't even expected that they will actually see my CV and invite me. So they invited me, it was a surprise. And I passed the HR round, but when it came to the technical part, it was like total embarrassment.

I couldn't answer, most of the questions. And I was just, uh, I don't know, I'm sorry, but I don't know. And this is, was the way that it went. And I get the answer five minutes after the interview that we didn't think, uh, like it didn't went well. And I actually know that there's there's a while and it was re

Zeke: So these are there's different kinds of interviews that go like this one version of it is they ask you questions and you don't know because, I mean, you had no chance to know, right? Like it's literally outside the scope of anything that was even in the job description.

Um, and then the second version of this is you don't know while you're in there, your review. And then as soon as you're out of the interview, we were like, I totally know what the answer to this.

Mais: Well, I get lucky in some kinds of the answers. It's just, I answered that logically, while I didn't actually know that this is the answer that they want. But the other part of the questions that I just absolutely don't know because they asked way more like high level that I, we didn't even know after even working for a year in tech.

So I felt so bad about this interview. I felt like I went back to the very bottom where I started. I lost my confidence and I thought that I may made the mistake by choosing this profession. Maybe I'm not actually suitable to this, uh, uh, profession.

Zeke: I'll say that as an interviewer, they they probably made a mistake in the way that they're asking the question. There's a lot of kinds of trick questions that will tell you whether or not a person is like you, because they had to have been done some stuff to get that knowledge.

But I think an interviewer is actually supposed to ask a question that starts at a place that's aligned from the job description and says, this is what you're supposed to do to know what do you know about that? And then they give you a piece of information and then you can drill into it. You go into layers.

So, can you give an example of a question that they asked and you realize now that was not it was not something you could answer. Probably still can't answer.

Mais: um, unfortunately no. I don't remember this kind of question, but I Al I remember that I was telling to myself in my head. Like if you asked me that question A, which also related to question B and they couldn't answer to us question A, why did you go to question B?

Like, I believe that the technical questions was like relate to teacher that, okay.

So if I didn't know the answer for that, why did you think that I would know the answer for that.

Zeke: They're following the script.

[00:31:30] Insight: Interviewers sometimes stick hard to their script

Mais: Yes, exactly. I believe a good interviewer should lead you through the interview, even if you are eventually not accepted at that company.

I think they could expect that. Okay. If she didn't know this, there is no . Reason to ask her about that. Maybe should ask her about different, uh, field and

Zeke: Alright. Here's a different question. What was the first question where you totally nailed it? Like, it was a technical question. You're all like, I got this, and you totally delivered. Do you have that moment?

Mais: Uh, yes. Uh, they asked me about the principles of the object oriented programming. And, uh, I was reading about it like few days ago and I, I nailed that answer. I felt so proud of myself.

Zeke: And how did they respond?

Mais: Um, the interviewer was actually happy that I could even give examples. And the also was happy that he said, oh, most of the programmers are not, um, knowing by heart, like they know the principles, but they know that the, not the namings, exactly.

As I mentioned, when you are the junior, you just want to prove yourself. So you're just trying to remember everything you read or everything you learn. And you're just like, want to show off that, oh, I know this. Although in the bootcamp, I didn't learn it, but I learned it by myself and then it leaded to different topic, which he asked me, "Okay, so I see that you have been learning by yourself, tell me what you have been learning."

[00:33:09] Insight: interview becomes a conversation

Mais: And then I was showing him what I was writing and what application as was built. So it, it took the interview from one direction to other direction where I am leading the interview. And there was, I, I really enjoyed this interview and I had a few interviews like that.

Which makes me happy because maybe sometimes I, yes, I didn't get the job, but I felt like the interviewer is interested in what I'm doing and he's, he still believed that I worth his time. Even if he, they will eventually decide, uh, that I won't be continuing the hiring process.

It gives the, especially for junior developers, it gives them like some kind of a good feeling that yes, this time it may not work, but if you continue on this path, this is really good. They just giving you some reassuring that you are on the right path. I really enjoyed this kind of interviews.

Zeke: You know what, uh, it's it's at every level. Junior developers, absolutely. But at every level, when somebody comes to interview, it means that they're committing time and they should, you know, we should value that time as interviewers. I feel very strongly about that.

You'll make a good interviewer if you keep that in mind, when you start interviewing other people.

Mais: I absolutely agree because you feel so frustrated when you invest so much time for an interview and eventually you just, or get rejected for no reason. Like they don't even give them feedback.

It's not a waste of time for you because I believe you won't get that interview where you will get the job until you fail with some interviews, and because interviewing is a skill and you need to practice it.

I don't think there is someone who born with all with this skill and just go through the first interview and get the job. Of course, there's some people who had this, uh, flow, but then every interview just made me learn new stuff.

And when I, when he asked me something, I didn't know, I would just write it down, and after the interview is finished, I would just go and read about it because they may ask about it in the next interview.

But, um, I had interviews where the process was so long, like more than two, three months. In the middle of the interviewing and in the middle of the interviewing process, I just received a cold email that we decided that we don't want to continue with you and no feedback and no reasoning.

Zeke: As part of this interviewing process or even part of your education, was there ever something where, um, where do you recommend not to do it? Do you know what I mean? Something where people usually spend time or you spent time and you realized I didn't need to spend that time or that energy on that topic.

Mais: Uh, no, no, absolutely not. As I mentioned every time, I was interviewing, even if it was a for a job that I didn't get. It was just like learning. It's like, it was like learning how to program, but there is like learning how to interview. And you just get used to it.

And I remember like my very first interview, I was shaking, I couldn't talk, or I pronounced many things wrong because I'm just so stressed and nervous. And then the like four or five interview, I was just so chill and relaxed. And for me it was just another interview either to practice or to get the job. So never say, never look at the interview like, ah, this is my only chance.

I had some thoughts in the beginning that, oh, I want this company, and if I don't get the job, then that's done, I don't want to interview anymore. But absolutely no. After a few interviews, it's just, it's just become more like, fun for me, it was like fun because I met many interesting people during the interviews and some of them, I even kept in touch on LinkedIn and I'm talking to them.

And because sometimes you really enjoy the interview because when you just talk about how, what the progress that you made in, since you started, you'll feel proud about yourself. And in some point, I don't say that you don't care that you didn't get a job, but you still, that won't break you. Like you would just go on for the next interview.

Zeke: I think that maybe the best attitude about interviewing I've ever heard. Let me just play it back for you so that I can remember it myself.

It's where yes, you're trying to get the job and it would be great if you get the job, but even if you're not getting the job, you're basically debugging the, the industry or something, you're debugging the job market.

You're creating a mental model of what, how the system itself works. It is black box debugging. And not only that, but it's a chance to network.

Mais: Exactly.

For example, one of the interviewers asked me, what would you do if you have all the money in the, in the world and you don't have to work. And when I told them that, well, I would be swimming with whales, in the Pacific ocean, then he was like laughing so much. He said that even if you still didn't have the techniques technical skills that we need, I think you'll have the soft skills that we need, which is communication, a team, a player like an open minded person.

And I have to mention that this is one of that it's may not be described in the job description, but I think one of the very, um, like one of the very basic requirements, especially when we are applying for the junior, because we don't have enough technical skills yet is the soft skills. I think this is what also, they also think about like, they're also looking for a team player.

Yes. I still don't have the technical knowledge that they need, but according to my soft skills, I am a fast learning, I am a person who's fun to, to work with if I am a team player. And I think you need to deliver that in the interview.

Zeke: Mm. Hmm. Um, I sometimes joke that the soft skills are the harder skills. I'll just give you three skills that never, never get easy, as far as I can tell.

That's communication, even when you're great at communication, there's still like so much more to be better at. Uh, the second one is dealing with ambiguity, because it's all about layers of ambiguity. So once you peal back one, then you realize there's a whole other dimension of ambiguity to most problems. And the third is prioritization.

And, and in fact, your strategy for interviewing encompasses all three of those. Like, where you said, you're debugging the system. Effectively, that's a, that's a rational response to ambiguity.

It says, I admit, I don't understand how things work. I will use this experiment to find out more about how things work so that I can make better decisions in the future. That's, that's what dealing with ambiguity fundamentally is right. Prioritization. It's like, I will take these things, you know, like in order of like what's available to me and what I can use best and stuff like that.

Um, networking is obviously a part of communication. Um, building relationships. Yeah. Trust building. Communications almost more like, it's not just being able to speak. Being able to be trusted in the relationships that you have, whether they're small or large.

Mais: Absolutely. And I have to say that I didn't get to this point and from the very first interview, it took me like four or five interviews to understand that this is what I should be doing. And this is what they should be showing in the interview.

And I don't want to say caring less about the technical part. You have to have a basics that, uh, it shows that you are, uh, you want to be a developer, but it's, I think it's the priority to show that you're a team player. You are a personal fun to work with.

Zeke: Mm mm. And a good learner. Um, you know, luck plays a big part in almost every great success story. Where do you think luck played a part in your, your journey?

[00:41:56] Insight: cold DMs can luck out

Mais: I have to say that luck was a big part of me finding a job because I, I used to have this, um, mindset of trying the cold approach on LinkedIn. Just sending, um, messages to people like, hi, I'm introducing myself. I just finished the bootcamp. I'm interested in your, uh, company and absolutely out of maybe 20 or 30 message I sent, I only got four to five response.

And once I just tried to apply for a company that I was interested in, although they didn't have any positions. And it actually worked because the, the person that I talked to in LinkedIn, he wanted to give some time of his, um, uh, calendar for me, even if he couldn't offer me a job.

And, uh, this is how I also find my current job. Now I'm working at Forto and Forto didn't had an open position, but to reaching people through LinkedIn, this is what helped me to find a job. And I think it's like, because if I landed on people who wouldn't give a chance, to even hear what you have, because there is no open positions, I wouldn't landed in my job.

So absolutely luck played a lot that I landed in the right person at the right time. I recommend the cold approach, because sometimes you can just hit the box with someone who is actually curious about your journey and why you even, and he looked at your LinkedIn profile and he see, oh, you had an degree with something else, why did you want to be a programmer? And just the conversation starts. And I'm so happy that I could find such, such a people through LinkedIn.

Zeke: Nice. That's good advice.

As you said, you were the very hungry phase of being a software developer, and this is a, a great time in developers line, cause like you get to just absorb everything. Do you have a personal goal about your growth and your direction?

[00:44:20] Insight: Imposter and goals

Mais: I definitely want to learn and basically learn and master the skills that I'm currently working on. Because for me, for example, not having a computer science degree, I always question myself, even now after almost seven months of, uh, working.

Do I deserve this position that I am in? And, and it's hard to not feel this way or as we call them imposter syndrome.

Zeke: Is it just a general thing or is it like you have this skill that you see that other people have and you wish you had it in, you know, you're working towards acquiring it?

Mais: Um, no, no, not specific skills. It's just like, for example, every sprint I get this tickets and if I have ticket that I have been working on for a very long time, while I, feel that other people can do it faster, it's just give me like, uh, like, uh, it's not like give me hard time with myself about questioning myself about it.

I'm trying to work on it. I'm trying to make it work and show my skills, but sometimes it doesn't always work. So sometimes you need eventually to go to your manager or to your colleague and say, "Listen, I, I cannot do it. I need so much help."

And then when you, when you actually get the help you, when you understand what was the problem about, you feel, you feel good that, oh, okay, now I learned this. I, it won't happen with me again, but it will happen with the different ticket.

[00:45:59] Insight: industry experience trumps education

Zeke: Would it have been solved if you'd had, uh, gone to university or not? Cause I think a lot of these things, you're just saying like this person's two years ahead of you, professionally, and they learned the same job that you're doing from somebody else, you know, it had that same clueless look.

Mais: exactly. This is what sometimes make me questioning myself, because again, I didn't go at the same process that he went the traditional process. But if you, if, if you think about it, When you are already in tech, you know that the actual, when the job is not what they teach you and the university, of course, they get you in the university, many things that will help you, but you can also learn this stuff outside of the university.

And it's never too late to learn it, but you would only need to know what you don't know. So, and you don't, you cannot know that unless you just try to do something and you cannot and try it again, and you still cannot. So you understand, okay, there's something missing here and I need to ask for help and ask for some directions that in the next time I wouldn't, uh, hit the same problem again.

But of course, of course, for in my case, I always like, I like when I had this, uh, I don't want to call it failure because I, I don't think it's a failure because I'm always learning new stuff. But of course you still, you, you, I questioned myself a lot because when I'm working with an professional environment and people coming from university and having a B.A. and M.A., and I just did the bootcamp, you would just feel insecure about it.

But I think it just go and demolish by time because you understand that what they actually need in the job that they, what they teach in the university. And it's never too late. You can always learn, you just learn how to adapt to this feeling and you'll learn how to make it the better I would say.

Zeke: You know, you don't have a lot of other people who are at the same level as you in, at Forto, right?

Mais: uh, no,

Zeke: Yeah. So, so everybody to you, everybody, it doesn't matter whether they have comp-sci background or they're they're self-taught because they're all like five years ahead of you on the experience ladder and yeah,

Mais: yeah. it's exactly like, I always forget that they also more way more experienced than me. And they always need to keep this in mind that

Zeke: Yeah. Five years of industry experience is much more potent than four years of university experience.

Mais: Yeah, of course.

Zeke: Well, uh, are there any things you'd like to kind of share a closing thoughts or anything that you'd recommend to, uh, people who are kind of following in your footsteps and, um, making a career shift like you.

[00:48:58] Insight: bootcamp followups FTW

Mais: Of course, um, what I have to say, that the things that gets me, the job is not what I learned at the bootcamp. It was, I it's what I did after the bootcamp, by myself.

No interviewer asked me too much about what I did in the bootcamp, as much as they as asked me about what I did after the bootcamp, because they are where you show that you are actually serious because in the bootcamp, you'll have this from eight to six hours and you need to finish it, and if you are not really motivated you, but you have to do it because you already paid for it. Or of course, there's like so many factors like that.

No boot camp can, uh, guarantee a job for you. The job hunt is 95% is individual effort. And if you don't do this individual effort, no bootcamp can guarantee you a job. Even if they are marketing that 95% got the jobs, but that doesn't mean that that bootcamp, uh, guarantee as a job, it's just that these people worked on it.

And this is the hardest part is just after the bootcamp, what should you do? How to do it? And how to start applying? Yes, they help that is like kind of career weeks where they try to guide you and they can kind of do they get to be hired event where some people from some companies make a zoom call and you assess, join and ask the questions and they collect the CVS.

Zeke: And it's not just you'll have a hard time getting the job, it's probably you'll have a hard time doing the job.

Mais: Exactly. And that some of the bootcamps market themselves, that they have partnerships with some big companies, but again, that's absolutely doesn't guarantee anything. And even if this, uh, partners want to hire, they usually hire one to two or three developers every six months. And when you have the bootcamp with 30 people and you have the bootcamp every three months, that's a lot of people who are looking for a job at the same time.

So again, like to shine from the crowd, you need to show that you are doing an extra effort after the bootcamp, or you're doing something beside the bootcamp. This is what I actually didn't know when I applied to the bootcamp, because the way that the bootcamps, uh, market themselves is, as you've said, guarantee a job, partners.

But you'll hit the real life in the career week, when you see other graduates from different batches that they still didn't get that job. Not because they're bad or anything, but just because they still didn't find that, uh, right interview and they didn't, um, pass the interview that they want. And, um, yeah, and like I realized that that I need to do way more than what I'm doing in the bootcamp.

Starting from building your own application or like studying some computer science, uh, principles, because in the bootcamp they don't teach you principles. Because in my case, for example, we started in the Ruby and Ruby on rails. And the Ruby on rails have so much magic that you don't need to care what's happening behind.

You just need to do what they are telling you to do and ignoring the fact that you ha you know, you need to know why this is happening. I think it's a huge, um, factor in getting a job because any, any physicians, they will ask you about some computer science principles and the few that they know that that may be a big disadvantage.

Zeke: Where did you learn these, these fundamentals are these principles?

Mais: um, online Google, uh, I had also this book Cracking the Coding Interview and it's, it's really helpful. You can learn many technical questions that they ask you is really in the interviews. I totally recommend it.

[00:53:18] Outro

Zeke: That's great. That's great. That's really wonderful. Um, yeah. Thank you so much for joining me today and, um, I, well, we'll talk again sometime soon.

Mais: Okay, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed our talk.

Zeke: Thank you so much for listening. You can find show notes and transcripts and more episodes like this one on the website: blog.introspectivedeveloper.com.

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I am Zeke Arany-Lucas, and you can connect with me on Twitter or LinkedIn. Please reach out there when you have questions or suggestions. Talk to you later.