P2P Podcast Series: Kaja Santro from Slacker to Ruby Hacker

Today, Kaja Santro (LinkedIn, Portfolio) connects art lovers with lovable artists, as a platform engineer at Artsy, a Series-D based out of NYC.

In university, she loved learning about historical linguistics, but her inquisitive mind rejected the toxic gender dynamics and left her uninspired about a job in academia.

Kaja was unemployed when she met WordPress while helping her boyfriend. He ran out of money before the freelancer could finish the website for his hostel. That led to late nights Googling SEO, and a new hunger to learn. She found her tribe at Rails Girls in Berlin. Ruby is the most inclusive language, and she will fight you to prove it.

In our chat, we talk about Studio Ghibli, Moroccan partners, radical negotiations, mashed potatoes, open source, and the advantages of hedonistic priorities.

This episode is packed with insights about:

• (00:00:43) Princess Mononoke is a metaphor and an inspiration
• (00:11:07) Becoming a developer, but first historical linguistics
• (00:18:56) Toxic environment squeezes love out of anything
• (00:23:27) First exposure was practical WordPress
• (00:29:22) P2: Learn to code with zero f***s (thanks Rails Girls in Berlin)
• (00:36:29) Healthy learning and a growth mindset required
• (00:42:11) Harness the inner hedonist
• (00:45:44) Get your bootcamp paid by the Arbeitsamt
• (00:54:54) Get lunch to clinch that job opening
• (00:57:38) P3 - The first job was magical (and problematic)
• (00:59:26) Ruby has inclusive values (Rails maybe not)
• (01:02:14) It's a lot of work to be the only woman in engineering
• (01:10:22) Claim your value, claim your salary
• (01:15:57) Find your dancing star (mentors take many forms)
• (01:20:24) Beware of pushing unpaid labor
• (01:26:10) Potatoes are the new smart food

Mentions:

• Read Feminist Fight Club
• Watch Coraline Ada Ehmke - The broken promise of Open Source
• Use Discourse, a free and open-source Internet forum software
• Eat at Osmans Töchter
• Learn to code at Career Foundry

Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Overcast, or your favorite platform.

Zeke Arany-Lucas is a principal engineer, coach, and consultant living and working in Berlin since 2014. He was previously a leader at Amazon and Microsoft, where he started his career building Internet Explorer. You can also follow him on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.

Artwork by Emre Aydogan & Laura Diezler — ©️2022 Zeke Arany-Lucas

Read the full transcript

Zeke: Hey, I'm a little I'm I'm running just a little bit, uh, off kilter this morning. Haven't quite got the, my rhythm or something here. Um. How are you doing?

Kaja: Yeah, I guess the similar issue.

Zeke: Okay. Well, we'll struggle through it. My, my thing is I also have my, I dunno, for some reason I have like a frog in my throat today. So I'm like gonna be constantly clearing my throat,

Kaja: Yeah, maybe you, you that's more editing work than

Zeke: Today has a bunch of editing work. Um, I, I saw that you, uh, you put on your website, you said that you like Princess Mononoke.

Kaja: Oh yeah.

Zeke: yeah. Are you a Studio Ghibli fan?

[00:00:43] Princess Mononoke is a metaphor and an inspiration

Kaja: Um, definitely. Yes, but I think Princess Mononoke stands out for me from all the other, uh, movies that they make. So, yeah, that's really my favorite one.

Zeke: Why, why is that one your favorite?

Kaja: I feel like it captures so many things. Um, it's very, first of all, the, like the two main characters, or actually there are like three main characters, right? There's the, the evil, um, lady that is, uh, make producing this weapons. And then there's the Princess Mononoke. Who's like a lost child in the forest, just trying to save nature.

And then there's this, um, prince from this foreign country who is just, uh, searching, like why. why is this Demon, um, attacking him and he's like searching for answers. And all of these characters have so many facets and it's like, not just, you know, a good person and a bad person fighting each other, but like you find out later through the movie that like, none of them are good or bad.

They just all have their reasons. And it's just such beautiful yeah. Story to like how it all plays together. But then also the atmosphere that is created through these like images in the forest that really always grabs my heart. You know, I'm like, I'm such a huge forest fan . And, um, when I watch like these images of, um, Just, you know, just sometimes you just see the forest and, and the light falling through the trees, or like the water going, you know, dripping into the, the little ponds that are in between the trees and, and hearing the sound of it.

And it's just, or the wind going through the leaves and stuff like that is just, uh, it makes me very emotional.

Zeke: The way you describe it is so visceral, you know, like you can, I can kind of feel it in my, in my senses, you know, you're like, oh yeah, like the forest, the people, the characters. I'm a big Studio Ghibli fan too. Um, uh, the Valley of the Wind Nausica, that one was like very, uh, made a big, I imprint on me when I was a kid and I saw it. Kind of realigned what I thought of as animation and movies and stuff like that.

Like, it was kind of like, whoa, and, and that's a similar kind of environmental themes and, you know, kind of epic and you know, like, like that, most of the conflict is about misunderstanding, not fundamental disagreement.

Kaja: Yeah. Yeah. Right?

Zeke: And I think the Studio Ghibli, Miyazaki kind of, um, that's one of the things that runs through a lot of the stuff is that we have our own intentions and the behaviors can look like something other than our intentions.

Kaja: yeah.

Zeke: Yeah.

Kaja: Yeah. I, I find also like in Princess Mononoke I can relate to all of these characters, like even the side characters, I feel like all, if you put them all together, you get me.

Like, I don't know. I'm like, yeah, like part of me is like this, I don't know, angry forest princess, you know, like just like raging and radicalizing herself.

And then like the other part is like this, um, more like analytical prince. Who's just searching for answers and like very neutral and very like taking himself back and like just, you know, wanting to, wanting to see the truth with his own eyes. And then the other part is like this, um, I don't know, like for example, the villagers, you know, they are just trying to live a good life and, um, they they're just trying, you know, to, to feed themselves and they, they actually profit from this, um, woman coming to the village and like creating an actual civilization there and helping them.

And all the women in the village are, you know, saying, oh, since she came it's, everything is better. Like we are working in the factory and the men are actually just like, you know, uh, doing the other jobs and, and like the women feel like they have a role in the village and they feel very empowered through the, um, through that lady who came and just, uh, yeah, reorganized everything in a way.

And I don't know, I feel like so many things in there. Uh, I can relate to and, um,

Zeke: Yeah,

Kaja: Beautiful.

Zeke: Yeah, really? That's that's that's cool. That's I mean, the empathy, right? That you're talking about the connection to so many different dimensions, right? It's like not, it's not just, oh, I like, this is my, you know, favorite artist or something like that. It's it's oh, wow. There's um, I don't know. I love those moments.

This is kind of a non sequitur, but, I've been thinking a lot about our connection to food and media, like food is so like present in real life, but food plays this crazy role in our, um, in our fictional lives too. And actually Studio Ghibli, like food is kind of everywhere. Right. And I was thinking about like how fictional food is sometimes real food and how real food is sometimes fictional food.

And then sometimes like, you know how I wanna, I want to, I want to cross over these, these meta boundaries, right? .

Kaja: Oh, yeah, it reminds me so much of like how many times I've got hungry reading Harry Potter books, cuz the food that is described and there's just so awesome. You know,

Zeke: Yeah. And, and actually Harry Potter books, like, I mean, is there something you wanna try from Harry Potter? Like, is there like a food

Kaja: everything

Zeke: every everything

Kaja: I mean they have like all these like pumpkin pies and I don't know, just in general when they are eating in the great hall of Hogwarts and it's always described like what's on the table and it just sounds so delicious. um, yeah, so I'm usually like, when I read it, I'm like, oh, I I'm gonna make later some like nice fried eggs with bacon or something, you know?

I mean, just reading it and getting hungry.

Zeke: Do, do you remember when, um, do you remember when they came out with, they had these candies, these Harry Potter candies or Harry Potter treats? And I remember specifically the jelly beans. I think that came out with like, with the second movie.

Kaja: Mm,

Zeke: And they were flavored with like, um, the twins, prank jelly beans.

So there's like booger flavored, jelly beans and things like that. Right? Yeah. Vomit flavored jelly beans. So like there are good ones and bad ones in the bag so that you didn't know what you were gonna get.

Kaja: Yeah. But it, to be fair, I don't consider that food. Like this is just like, you know, joke, uh, merchandise articles. Like it's not really, it's not really food, right?

Zeke: it agreed. I, I just that's, it's just a crossover. Right? Cause I was like thing where people are like, oh, well, can we make it real? You know, people have fantasies. I mean, it is evocative of these things. I, and there's so many times where, well,

Kaja: do you, I mean, okay, just one last more

Zeke: yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Kaja: Um, do you, I don't know if you've read a Lord of the Rings

of the book.

Zeke: Many, many times.

Kaja: Yeah. So the first time I read it, I was a teenager and I was constantly obsessing about this. Like from the, from the, um, elves, they got this like really nice, like little breaths

Zeke: Mm.

Kaja: journey.

I don't know how to call them, but like, and they were so efficient. Right. And they were like this little packed breaths that were really efficient and like helping them in this crisis throughout the whole journey. And I felt I was so obsessed with it. I was like to such an effect of food. I really like for hiking, you know, you just go somewhere and you have like very lightweight.

Food pack that is super efficient. And I don't know, I was just really interested in like, if I can recreate this in real life, but yeah, that

Zeke: they, they, yeah, so the elven one, probably not. Cuz I remember like the, the other thing is that they could, you could compare it like with the dwarven bread, right? So they have something called hard tack.

Kaja: Mm

Zeke: Actually has a historical precedent. It's this, you know, kind of bread that doesn't spoil. That's the key, right?

Is you got it in your pack and it's not gonna spoil, so it has to be super dry and you're like this, but the key with the elven, the elven way bread, I think they called it. I think that's what it was in English, but I mean the Elvis name too. Right. But like way bread and that stuff was, it was light and fluffy and delicious travel bread like that the elves had made, uh, like it not painful.

There's also, um, I remember from when I was a kid, I read all these nature books. Like I can't remember the author's name, but he wrote books about dogs and being lost in the woods and stuff like this. And pemmican is a native American thing that I remember, which is like some combination of meat and berries and fat and stuff that you'd use while you're like running all day.

If you're gonna run for 24 hours, you'd have like the pemmican cuz it's dense and has sustained energy, a combination of sugar and protein and fat.

Kaja: Yeah,

Zeke: Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, I like trail mix seems like a pretty, uh, like what is it actually? What, what is it in German? Uh, Studentenfutter. Yeah, that was, I love Studentenfutter.

What a great name. Has all kinds of connotations.

Kaja: Yeah.

[00:11:07] Becoming a developer, but first historical linguistics

Zeke: Um, okay. That's great. Thank you very much. Uh, I, I gonna come back to that actually, but uh, let's, let's move on to building software and becoming a developer. Can you tell me, uh, you know, a little bit about how you got started or how about we start with before you were a software developer?

What were you.

Kaja: um, I was, uh, studying philosophy because I didn't want to do anything professional or that has relation to any job. I just wanted to learn something. Um, yeah, so I was studying philosophy and historical linguistics. I didn't know anything about programming.

Zeke: What's historical linguistics?

Kaja: How do I explain it? It's basically like, um, paleontology, like if you. You know, if, if you are searching for like reconstructing dinosaur skeletons, you have to look at the bones and like kind of reconstruct from there. And the same thing you can do with languages, you kind of find old traces of really old languages and then reconstruct the grammar of these languages and how they are related to each other.

Zeke: Oh my God. That is so cool. I mean, I don't know. I, so I'm fascinated by linguistics, but that is so cool. So what did you, where did you trace through? I mean, I'm sorry, I wanna talk about this for a second.

Kaja: Yeah.

Zeke: What languages were you? What, what language families or whatever were you digging into?

Kaja: Yeah. So we did have to focus on, uh, Indo-European languages. Um, which is like, later on, I focused more on Germanic languages, but, um, we had to go through everything. So basically, like we had to, I don't know, learn about all the like ancient, uh, languages, ancient, Greek

ancient. Uh, how do you say old Iranian? Um, and yeah, basically it was not really focused. Yeah. You have to kind of know about all of them in order to compare because, you know, it's and the categorization and everything depends so much on having an overview over all of these languages and understanding the relation between them.

So it it's, there was not a clear border or, you know, a clear, um, I don't know, How to explain it. You couldn't say, like I only studied one language. Um,

Zeke: Hmm.

Kaja: all of them.

Zeke: Did, uh, I, so I find this topic amazingly fascinating, like, especially kind of like, as I've been learning German and I find out how much crossover between German and English there is. So you can see how the language has evolved or transformed. Did, um, I I've heard there's a legend or the Basque is not related to the other languages.

Kaja: Yeah. Um, yes, there are many theories around this, like weird, um, languages in that pop up, you know, geography in, in the geography, like close to other languages. But like from the language itself, it's not close to anything in that area, but then somehow it has like some relation with another language that is in a different area.

And yes, like Basque is one of these examples where it's not so clear where it came from, but there are also other ones, uh, that you can find if you look a bit closer. So, I mean, Hungarian and Finnish are also another example where it's like, what, you know, why are Hungarian and Finnish so close to each other, but why

Zeke: Hungarian and Finn are close to each other. They're related.

Kaja: Yeah, there is a theory that says that they, they come from their own language family that is not related to any other European language family. And I don't know, it's just, um, . I mean, it could also be that my knowledge is a bit outdated now. So I don't wanna say anything here, please. Like, if you are more interested in that, do the research and look for the newest, um, updated knowledge, because my knowledge might be very outdated.

It's a while ago that I studied that. Um, and these theories were also not very like, um, proof back then. So there were like a lot of things in the air where people were like, you know, this could be the reason or this could be related, but there's someone else saying no, you know, there are other reasons for other theories.

And,

Zeke: and it's not, it's not really provable, right? Like fundamentally you can't test a hypothesis and prove it. You just have to kind of make a convincing story that works.

Kaja: They use scientific methods. So what of course they use a lot is like data science and you kind of, already nowadays, have these computer programs that can calculate similarities between languages and like, um, yeah. Deduct kind of rules, um, from, from certain similarities and stuff. So, so you just have to look at the data that you have.

So this will be old texts, you know? Um, I don't know, in, in German you would use like Bible translations, things like that, that you find in some old monastery, you know, that is from a 1500 and then you compare to another one and so on and you just take, um, I don't know, similar words for a similar meaning and then take them from elsewhere and compare it.

And you just have like a big set of data and you work with that, right? So it's, it's not, it's not like only storytelling. So there is like scientific methods and a certain amount of like, You know, provability for, for certain things, but, mm,

Zeke: I was more saying that, like, we can't go back in time and then play forward. We can just kind of, you know, make more and more description. What you're talking about with the data stuff is fascinating, cuz there's a lot of cool machine learning, things that have gone on in linguistics and uh, you know, an NLP, natural, natural language processing and stuff like that.

I mean the huge advances with the, um, in the past just, well really the past 10 years. Um, yeah, that's been pretty amazing. They've actually talked about, uh, like doing crypto. They've started doing crypto cracking, using the NLP cracking, like you basically changed a foreign language as, uh, just an encoding of something.

And then you understand that it's actually talking about something else and then build these relationships. I know I was like super fascinated and unsupervised learning obviously can tell us stuff here that you would not be able to see with just heuristic programming because the, the connections obviously are too complicated for us to really pick up on, I, I, I, this is I, to me, it's like you talk about this field and now I'm like wondering like, well, why would you stay there?

What, what, what was, why was that enough? That sounds so cool.

[00:18:56] Toxic environment squeezes love out of anything

Kaja: I mean, yeah. Uh, I loved the subjects that I studied. I just didn't love the environment that I studied in. So, um, academics was very, um, much not, um, an area where I fit in with my life circumstances. Um, which means coming from a background of poverty, um, having to, you know, organize myself and somehow pay my rent and food.

And I struggled to do that when I was studying. And I felt like, um, it was just, I don't know. I just felt like there is this ivory tower where you can like, just sit and think about all this, like non-material things , but there is actually my real life problems and other people that I studied with didn't have, or seem to not have these problems and could focus much more on studying while I was like, I don't know.

It just, um, seems less relevant to me when I couldn't buy food or pay me rent

Zeke: All right. So this, we had some pretty practical motivations for maybe exploring outside academia.

Kaja: Yeah. And, and yeah, and I mean, I don't know, I've just talked about this also in philosophy. Um, so I studied at the home board university in Berlin and, um, I went more into like theoretical philosophy and, you know, philosophy of, um, the mind, uh, logics philosophy of language. Like the, the, that was more my field that I was interested in, but that field is like very much, um, male dominated, very, also upper class dominated in a

Zeke: So, so this, this leads to why you of course, became a software developer because that's not a male dominated or upper class dominated field. Right. Sorry.

Kaja: Funny, funny. Yeah. I mean the, the way how I entered into software development was through this like, um, workshops for women. So if you know that if there had been any program in philosophy that would empower the women to get on with their careers, I would've maybe taken those and said like, Hey, let's go.

You know, I'm going to become a professor of philosophy. But, um, to be honest, I think academics is much worse than software engineering. It is much more judgemental and the problems there are much worse. Um, I think.

Zeke: So I totally agree with you. I think that this is one of, one of the problems I had with school, in fact, was that they, you know, like it's, what do you call it? It has a, has a lot of resistance to change, has a lot of resistance to change. So whatever is established is, and, and the whole structure of it is really there to defend the institutions, right?

Like, um, you know, like of course change, there has a role in all of these things, but it's like, you really go through the channels and there's all the hierarchies and stuff like this, that, that, I mean, yeah, I , you're, you're speaking my language there. And definitely the tech industry has some of these problems, but has a lot of disruption going on all the time.

And you know, one of the reasons I got into the, the podcast where I got curious. Doing this podcast and talking to people like you was because, I actually, you know, people like the, in the industry over the 20 years, I've been here, they wake up on saying, oh, we're gonna diversity. We just have to encourage schools to do better.

And I'm, I'm like, man, every turn of the crank in school is like, it's like a whole generation. You gotta like, basically say like, let's see if this generation has any diversity in it. Like, Nope. Okay. Well let's wait 15 years before we get another generation. I'm like, that is not, if we really care about getting diversity in the industry, then we have to find other ways, which it sounds like you found other ways.

Can we let's go to, what was your first introduction to code? Where do, where does, where does it come from before you made the decision to be a software developer? Where did you learn about it?

[00:23:27] First exposure was practical wordpress

Kaja: Yeah, that was, uh, through my back then boyfriend who's now my husband and his, um, he had a hostel and needed a website for the hostel and was, um, he was like, oh, I don't know how to do this. Um, Kaja, can you help me? Um, and he had like a freelancer who, who he, you know, who started doing the website, but then, um, he, like, my boyfriend ran out of money and, you know, the freelancer couldn't finish the website and said like, it's actually not so hard to do this.

You can like finish it yourself. And, um,

Zeke: The freelancer was saying, you can finish it yourself to your, to your boyfriend, to your fiance.

Kaja: Yeah, yeah. And he was, you know, he's like this kind of guy, who's like, uh, computers, like this is not my field, you know? Um, I can't do it. And yeah, Kaya, you are smart. You can learn this and come on, just look at it, please, you know, and I was like, okay, you know, I might as well just look at it, no problem.

And sat down with the freelancer. And it was like, it was not so hard. It was done with the CMS and it was really kind of easy to just like finish up the components and, um,

Zeke: Wait, wait a second. Wait a second. So you've never done any kind of programming before

Kaja: Yeah.

Zeke: and your boyfriend is, uh, I mean he is kind of like he's, he's dumping it on you. Is, is isn't that what's going on here is all like, ah, or what's he empowering you? Or was he like, uh,

Kaja: I mean, he, naturally has like this habit of delegating tasks. Let's, let's put it like that. And, um, I mean, I was back then, I was at, in Morocco at his place, not having anything to do. So I was just staying at, in Morocco, in his hostel, uh, because he couldn't like he's Moroccan and he couldn't leave Morocco.

So I had to come visit him

Zeke: Mm,

Kaja: And I was just like, staying there, going surfing, not doing anything, just, you know, living my life as a hippie. Uh, and yeah, so I was kind of glad to have something to do in that time I missed using my, my brain, you know, I was like, I mean, I went to language school there a little bit to study Moroccan and I did some, some other things, but, you know, I needed some, some kind of job to do, even if it was unpaid, um, I was kind of glad to sit down and learn something new.

So I was like, no problem. You know, I have, I have the time. So, uh, I'm going to take a look at it and

Zeke: and, and an analytical mind. I mean, pretty clearly like the whole, uh, linguistics, the historical linguistic stuff is all about, you know, going deep into, you know, breaking down systems. Right. Cause

languages are really just complex systems. I mean, complex meaning non-deterministic systems. Um, and then you're trying to correlate these non determining.

I mean like software looks a lot like that. Most of the time you go, oh, there's a legacy system and that's what you're given. Right, right. So what kind of, what system were you given? Let's just find that out. What is

Kaja: yeah. I mean, um, I think it was what it was WordPress. Um, the thing is, I didn't know any of that back then, so I didn't know the, that there's any connection. What I'm studying and what programming is? I, I had no idea.

Zeke: Hmm.

Kaja: uh, for me it was just like, um, you know, sitting in front of the computer and finding some, something out that I don't know anything about, um, to help my back then boyfriend, um, to, you know, just, um, get on with his business because I kind of also wanted him to, you know, earn money with his business because I was staying there. And, you know, I also didn't have enough, uh, money to live and stuff.

So I was like, yeah, I might as well just help him to, to grow his hostel business. And, um, that was my motivation, not my analytical mind or anything.

Zeke: It's a, it's a great motivation. I was just saying that you have, like, you were saying, you have a energy pent up, like you're not using the analytical part of your brain much. And now it's like, oh, well here's a problem.

Or glom right onto that one. Um, and,

Kaja: yeah,

right.

Zeke: problems are awesome.

I think the ones where you say, like, what do I, what would, what would cause again, you can say, is it successful? You can all say, is it done

Kaja: yeah,

Zeke: you don't know what the, what done looks like, but the website actually has to serve a function actually has to help him with his hostel.

If it's not available, then you know, you know, it's not worth anything. Right.

Kaja: Yeah. And, and the other problem was that when, once we finished the website, um, it didn't show up in the Google results. So I was really disappointed. Like I was like, oh, you know, I put some work into this. Why is it not showing up? And then I that's when I went back to Berlin and started researching Google analytics and search engine optimization and got like, I really just spent nights with my laptop in the bed.

You know, figuring stuff out and

Zeke: That's a deep topic. That's a really deep topic.

Kaja: yeah, it is.

Zeke: That's a career topic all by itself. Right. Just becoming an SEO person. You can just say that I'm gonna do that for the rest of my life.

[00:29:22] P2: Learn to code with zero f***s (thanks Rails Girls in Berlin)

Kaja: Yeah. And, and what, what bugged me back then was I was like, copy pasting, JavaScript into the, into the HTML, um, of the website. And I was like, I just don't know what this Java script actually means. Like the HTML is kind of intuitively easy to understand, but the JavaScript was like another thing that I was like, I'm just copy pasting stuff and I don't know what it does and I don't know why it works, you know?

And, um, that, that was bugging me. And I was like, I wish I could understand these things. And that's when I started researching in Berlin for, um, programming classes and workshops.

Zeke: Right. So how did that go? What did you do?

Kaja: Um, I, I just basically search, you know, uh, opened, uh, my favorite search engine of choice and, uh, I was like typing, uh, uh, workshops, programming, Berlin, you know, and everything that came up was like super expensive.

Here's a

Zeke: when was this?

Kaja: 6000 Euro bootcamp or something. When was that? Maybe 2016, I think, or 15. So that around that year and yeah, and I was like, oh, you know, I can't afford this.

Um, after finishing, uh, my, my degree in, in philosophy, I, I was, uh, unemployed and. I just had the unemployment money from the government, which was really only the rent and like a little bit of pocket money for food. And so I couldn't have never paid any of these workshops. And they also, I, you know, when you start searching for something that you don't know, anything about is hard to judge.

If something is good or just a scam, or if it's something useful, you don't know like what, where should I even start searching for stuff? And, yeah. So I, um, I was frustrated and talked about this frustration to one of my best friends. And she mentioned the Rails Girls Berlin.

She was like, yeah, there's this, uh, workshop for free for women's programming workshop. It's a whole community. You should check it out.

I was, I was a bit hesitant cuz I also, the name was throwing me off a bit. I was like grades like what do Rails have to do with programming? And um, girls, you know, I'm not a child anymore. Maybe this is more for like younger people. I, I was just a bit hesitant, but then when I saw their website and on the content, like what they're actually doing, I was like, okay, maybe this is something for me.

So I applied for a workshop and um, I was accepted and it was such a great experience. It was like one of the best things that happened to me ever. and um,

Zeke: What made it, what made it stand out like that?

Kaja: So first of all, this atmosphere of like walking into this huge building, so they were hosted by a big company and um, you know, you just walked into this like glass hall and everything looked so modern and impressive and great. And, um, we got like all this like stickers and bags for free, you know, like I never saw that, something like that before.

And, um, and, and the room was like just full of women and it was a hundred women sitting there. Like I wanna learn programing. Yeah.

And like the women on stage were so cool. You know, they were like, so inviting and inclusive and being like, yeah, you know, no problem. You can just like play around today.

There's no expectation that you do anything right.

You can just like break everything, you know, just try everything out. Do the, you know, if you fail at any of the tasks, that's what we want you to do. You know, we want you to like, actually. Fail with it and like break stuff and just try it out and like get in there, you know.

And it was so cool, and so empowering. I was like, this is not like, this is the best atmosphere to learn something because you're not scared anymore. Right. Like if somebody that you clearly can relate to, because there's a woman standing there in front of you telling you stuff and, and you feel like if she can do it, I can learn it too.

And then she says like, get in the mud and just get dirty. And like, don't worry, you know, it's, it was like super the best experience. And, uh, took like, I think almost three days. And in the end we all had, um, a running Rails app that did something funny and, you know, uh, it was just a cool thing to do.

Zeke: That's incredible. I mean, I just, to what you're describing, I don't even know if I've ever had a class experience where, I'm trying to think. I don't, I don't know. I mean, I kind of drifted outta school early. I mean, not early, I mean, went through high school, but you know, like at the end of high school I was especially disenchanted.

So I kind of, I think I've mostly stayed away from these group class experiences and I'm even even suspicious when people claim to be excited. But I think it's because I don't want to be disappointed again. I loved school when I was a kid. That what you're talk. Actually, that's true. What you're talking about.

I absolutely had, when I was little, you know, it was just like, you know, like, oh, we're just here to learn. We're just here to learn and explore. Oh, let's do that.

Kaja: Yeah. And I, I, I feel like, yeah, I, I think even in university, I mean, it is quite, uh, You know, you have the control over what you learn. You have like the free choice. Like also in the university that I went to, it was quite open about like, you know, how much you were actually there in the classes or not like nobody really cared.

They, most of them were just like giving you the trust that you are a grown up person and you know, how much you need to study for everything. Um, so there was not so much micromanagement, but, um, it was still like not, you know, having a good failure culture. It was still like, oh, you know, either you get like good grades in you're perfect or you're a failure and, uh, no, like, you know, no room to make failures and learn from them.

[00:36:29] Healthy learning and growth mindset required

Kaja: So this like healthy growth mindset, um, I really didn't have it until I went to this route girls's workshop and, um, Yeah, that was different. It felt different because before that, in my life I've always felt like a good, yeah. I don't know. I was growing up, being told I was having like super special talents, you know, like being, uh, overly intelligent and this was like a talent.

And, um, I had to kind of perform, you know, to, to, to fit into the picture that people had of me. So if I didn't, if I failed at something, I felt like, okay, I don't have a talent. So I'm, I'm also not gonna touch this anymore because I were just disappointed. and, um,

Zeke: you, you, um, this came up for me recently that the exact same or something very similar, which is people when I was young would always say you have so much potential

Kaja: mm-hmm yeah.

Zeke: and this and this, and this was code for you're so smart, you could be doing something that I think you should be doing and you're doing something else.

Kaja: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds similar. Yeah.

Zeke: like, I'd be like, it's like, oh, like you're, you're smart, you're capable but somehow when I look at your grades or I look at my expectations of you, you are disappointing.

Kaja: Mm-hmm

Zeke: Oh, that, that doesn't feel supportive.

Kaja: yeah. I mean, I feel like it's also, I never understood like why people didn't see that I was just really lazy and like you know, and if you're lazy, you have to be smart to have like a workaround. That's the, that's the trade off. Right. So you can either be like disciplined and work hard and then like succeed with the given tasks.

Or if you're lazy, you have to just. Be very creative and find a good workaround to also succeed in a system that doesn't let you just be lazy and do nothing. So I think, yeah, for me, it was more like, yeah, I'm naturally lazy. , you know, if I could choose, I would just not do anything, just like have fun and, you know, whatever that means.

Like if it means reading a book or tinkering around with like formal logics and solving theorems, uh, just for fun. I like doing that, but not for work. I, I won't do it if I have to do it, right. So if someone, somebody tells me I have to do this in order to achieve something, then there's no intrinsic motivation anymore.

For me, it's extrinsically motivated. Not my thing. Like I can't work under this circumstances as saying, oh, no, it feels like work. I might rather not do it. And I feel like, yeah, this just, yeah, it's kind, it's kind of like. A very hedonistic view on, uh, yeah. Learning or working and yeah. So

Zeke: So, uh, but to become a software developer without having kind of all of the things, the support system in place in my experience requires some kinds of some kind of intrinsic motivation, right. Or, or was it not? I mean, like, did you, yeah,

Kaja: Yeah, I mean, it was like, for me, it was just like a really fun thing to play around with. And I didn't start doing it with like a career in my mind. Like I didn't, when I started learning programming, I didn't think of like, oh, that's what I wanna do now in my career, what I was thinking was, oh, um, why is this like, Cru stuff, not working when I'm, you know, when I put everything in the controller that I had to put in in there and why can I not create this thing that I wanted to create?

And you know, oh, oh, I didn't set up a database. Ah, you know, like this was like my, my thought there. And, and I was like, just caring about like the thing itself, but just for like playful reasons. And, um, I didn't, yeah. I, I remember the first time that this, um, thinking of like, oh, maybe I could work there the first time that thought appeared was add on event also of the Rails Girsl Berlin that was called Code and Cake. Which is like, The better version of a hackathon cuz there's cake and and, um, it was, it was hosted, um, by this, uh, company called Better Place.

And they, I don't know where they are now, but back then they had this really nice, like roof rooftop area in an old love building. And we were doing our hackathon projects there. And I, I looked around, I was like, this office is so nice. Um, it's actually, I could see myself working in this kind of environment.

You know, I was just like thinking of another pleasurable thing for me. It was not like I wanna do this career cuz I wanna, you know, be successful or something. I was just like sitting in this environment thinking that's nice. They have dinosaur stickers in the kitchen. And ice cream. That's what I wanna do.

[00:42:11] Harness the inner hedonist

Zeke: Oh man, that's awesome. They appealed to your hedonistic instincts. They're like, you know, just make it look more comfortable than where she is right now. And then we'll pull her in.

Kaja: Uh, and I, and yeah, really. And like, of course, one of the people from, from the company was there, um, Johannes. He, he was like there, you know, on his weekend, you know, just hosting a nice, uh, event for some women who want to learn programming. And, uh, he helped me also with my, my project.

Um, so I was like trying to build an app that would connect urban gardeners with each other, uh, and, and open up like a community to, you know, in Berlin people could like connect urban gardening and, and like, see where there are projects, where they can be a member of and stuff like that.

And. He was like, oh, that's cool. Okay. I'm gonna help you. And then I asked him like, so you work here, right? Like, how is it? Um, can I also work here? Are you searching for a person? Like, uh, it looks just so nice here.

And he's like, uh, well, let me think about, I mean, it's nice here, but, uh, we don't have any openings right now. And also you, you're clearly not a trained, uh, uh, developer yet. So, um, I don't know if we can really give you a paid position, but I'll ask what I can do for you.

You know? And then in the end he came up with the idea, okay, you can do like a four week unpaid internship, but here's the thing:

You can just ask any questions. You can do your own projects. You can work on your app here. And like you have the support system of our engineers helping you out and coaching you throughout the way. If that's something. You're open for like, come here, here's your desk, here's the contract, everything fine.

And I was like, I mean, I had to, I had to go to the job center and ask them if it's okay.

Um, because they were like, you know, I was unemployed and doing like an unpaid internship. I, I wasn't sure if that's allowed and they were like, okay, you know, under these circumstances, if, if you are willing, like, if this is what you wanna do with your career, then, then this is definitely a step that we support.

And I was like that, that was when I had to commit to like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's what I wanna do in my life as a career. Yeah. So for the next four weeks, I was just sitting there learning Rails that basically with, with that guy Johannes and he, um, showed me their Rails app and I was, I was like, wow. You know, like, The difference between my two day old Rails app that had like three lines of code in it versus like a 10 year old dinosaur code base.

Uh,

Zeke: He passing out all those are stickers,

Kaja: Exactly. and yeah, but it was so cool and I was really happy and I really liked working there and I really liked the people and I was just like enjoying it so much that afterwards I was convinced that this might be a job that I could see myself, uh, working in. And, um, also at that same event, I met another woman who was a bit ahead of me.

[00:45:44] Get your bootcamp paid by the Arbeitsamt

Kaja: So she was already, um, taking classes in a bootcamp and, um, she had switched her careers. Like she was like deciding to go into software development. And she told me of the bootcamp and told me that this bootcamp actually is certified by the job center. So if you go to the job center and say, you wanna do that bootcamp, they will pay. And, and I was like, that's such a good and valuable information. Thank you. So I went to the job center and said, can I please do that bootcamp? Um, can you fund me? And they were like, no, no, you are already qualified with your philosophy stuff. You know, we have other people here are way less privileged. Um, we don't fund this.

And then, um, I was like, okay, no problem. And, but I had to meet this job center lady, um, every few weeks. Right. And tell her the progress on my career plans. So anytime I would meet her, I was like, well, it all actually. You know, doesn't work out without the bootcamp. So all the jobs I, I applied for, they said like, if you had done the bootcamp, you would, you would be a good candidate for us.

And so I, I just went there like three times asking, can I please have the bootcamp? And she always said, no. And in the end she said, yes. And she gave up and was like, okay, you know what? Here's, here's the, you know, bootcamp, you do it, but you have to finish it like in a certain amount of time. Um, we only pay for this like short term thing that you do full-time bootcamp and you just have to study it all.

And yeah. And then I did that and it was really good. Um, very,

Zeke: Though, that's not a bad test because pushing through friction is one of the kind of core skills that shows both intention and prioritization, right? Like you're, you know, like, you know, like by saying, not saying yes right away and requiring that you say, I come back to it and I come back to it, then you show that you're, you're a priorit priority is more than just an intention.

Right.

Kaja: Yeah. Yeah. And I, it was also funny cuz this, I mean the job center lady who, she was funny, it, it, I was already like always being a ver in a very like kind of ironic mindset when I went there. Like, because this environment in the job center is so, you know, this German administrative environment and everything is super stuffy and old and they don't know anything about like web development or, you know, for them, it's like, you're an engineer.

So here you go. There's like, uh, car shop that meets a Java developer for some old stuff, you know, like the, for them it's, they don't have like any like new information about the market or anything. And, and it was just so funny and I always went there with this. I don't know with this mindset of I'm so lucky, uh, to have this unemployment money.

I mean, in other countries, I wouldn't have that, but you know, I'm just gonna milk it as much as I can cuz I really didn't just wanna do any job anymore. I have done so many bad jobs and I was just like willing to really just, you know, milk the system as much as I can until I find something that I really wanna do.

Zeke: Mm

Kaja: And that's what I did. So I always went there with this like little, you know, twinkle in my eye, like ha okay, let's see what they're trying to make me do this time, you know. I can get around with, with my laziness. yeah, but in the, in the same time learning programming. So I guess I wasn't so, so lazy.

Um,

Yeah, but then I was living in a shared flat and my flatmates, they were so surprised cuz like usually when I studied, I was never disciplined, right. I always procrastinated a lot and was like sitting in our community kitchen and just drinking coffee with everyone. But once I went did the boot camp, they never saw me.

I was just going to my room and doing like these tasks. And I just came out like for lunch break and went back into my room. Cause it was like a remote thing. And they were like, Kaja, what happened to you? You got so disciplined. I was like, it's fun actually. And I'm just enjoying it.

Zeke: deep work you were doing deep work. Uh, so, uh, So how long did it take you from that point where you took the rails workshop to where you actually got your first paid position?

Kaja: That I think that was probably a year or more.

Zeke: Hmm,

Kaja: Um, yeah, cause, uh, it didn't go fast. I think I also took like, uh, a Ruby class, um, with the Rails Girls Berlin was like once a week, evening thing. And then I also, after the bootcamp, I applied for jobs, but they were all like, you don't really have any practical experience.

So, um, no, thanks. Uh, we're not taking someone who's as junior as you are. And although I only applied for junior positions and I was like, what do you expect? You know, like if I would have work experience, uh, I wouldn't be a junior. Well, anyway, I then heard of the Rails Girls Summer of Code program. And applied for that.

And that was pretty cool cuz we had like, so the program was funded by the Travis foundation and we got like three months, uh, some kind of salary from the scholarship. we had like coaches and supervisors and we, we were always applying as a team of two women with a project that was already like predefined.

So my project that I applied for was, um, for Discourse, um, the, yeah, it, and we should like build a plugin for them to make, uh, backups with other backup providers. And the Discourse, um, mentor from the project who was like, kind of, uh, mentoring us and telling us what exactly they needed, uh, was sitting in Toronto and we needed also a coaching company.

So we needed a company that was kind of giving us what Better Place had given me before, like a place work for three months and some, you know, more experienced, um, developers around in the office in case we had questions. And, um, yeah, we applied for that. And I remember , we didn't find a coaching company first of all.

But then I read on Twitter that there's a coaching company saying like, or a company saying we still open to, you know, host like Rails Girls Summer of Code teams. Like, do you wanna, we, we would be happy to be a coaching company and. So I went there with my teammate and it was, uh, this German company, like a job board and the developers were super nice and they were like, yo, this are office.

You can come here for the three months. No problem. And, um, yeah, so in the end we got the scholarship and we started going there every day, you know, the whole day, like, uh, coding on the open source stuff for Discourse. And I started annoying them a lot. Cause I was like every day coming there and like, Hey, wouldn't it be so great if after the summer of code, I started working here actually as, as an engineer, like don't you like me so much?

You know, if the summer of code is over, you won't have that pleasure anymore. and. And yeah, I don't know. It just became kind of a running gag between the people. They were like, oh, like, yeah, Kaja, don't worry and stuff. You know, like we will think about it, but at some point the summer, you know, was getting to an end and I started feeling really like, shit.

You know what, when this summer, of code is over, I have to go back to unemployment money and I don't want that, you know, I don't wanna go for this job search anymore. It's I've, I'm I really don't want, I, I just wanna have that kind of job where I can do this fun stuff. And then I took a really good chance cuz there was like, I remember one day there was like a former colleague, um, coming to visit the engineers and having lunch with them.

[00:54:54] Get lunch to clinch that job opening

Kaja: And so we were all went to having lunch together and um, that colleague then. Like had a new job at, I think digital adventures or something. And , the CTO was also sitting together with us, with us across, um, of me on at the table. And I was like, look, looking over at the CTO, making sure that he's hearing what I'm saying now to the colleague.

And I said like, Hey, do you need any like junior developers at digital adventures? Like, do you know if you have any job openings? And he's the guy was like, oh yeah, sure. Like, I will, I'll let you know, no problem. Let's stay in touch. And I was like, cool, cool. And then the next day the city came, uh, to me with like, let's talk about your employment here.

And you know, and he just like offered me a drop. And I was like, yeah, that was smart of me. Just, you know, showing him that I,

really like gonna look for a job. And if he doesn't like, tell me very soon that I have a job here, then I'll just apply somewhere else. And in the end I took the job and it was super cool.

And yeah, so that was my first, first step into the career.

Zeke: That's that's, uh, that's really organic.

You know, like, it kind of sounds to me like you just, each time you had a choice, you like where you could make that choice. You're just like, I take this choice and I take this choice again and I take this choice again.

I mean, there's a combination of being open, but also creating opportunity. And then when it will opportunity was available, then, you know, really making sure you jump in it.

That's, that's fantastic. I mean, that's, uh, um,

Kaja: Kind of the picture for me is. Wherever a door opened like a tiny little bit. I just pushed it open and was like, hello? I'm here. Can I come? yeah.

Zeke: uh, that's quite the visual,

Kaja: uh, just really, really pushy on that, but I'm glad I was. I mean, otherwise it would've taken much longer and.

Zeke: Straight up, straight up, you know, one of the first things when I was a manager, one of the first things I always tell people is like, don't wait for other people to manage your career. You won't like the results. Once you decide you want a career, then it's, you gotta step in yourself and say, I'm, I'm directing it.

I'm driving where I go.

Kaja: Yeah. Yeah, of course you have to always make sure to, you know, stand in for your own interests cuz in the end, nobody else will. Right. Uh

yeah.

[00:57:38] P3 - The first job was magical (and problematic)

Zeke: So it sounds like, you know, you had this, you know, I'm not gonna say magical journey, but there's like such a kind of natural progression from, you know, one event to another event. And, you know, each time you kind of pushed your way in, the reception actually seemed to be kind of increasingly positive, you know, is that the, has that maintained through the same way throughout your kind of career?

Cuz that's, you know, years now you've been in the.

Kaja: Yeah. So, I mean, I am definitely privileged in a way that I am in the Ruby community. So like any job that I take will kind, kind of be influenced by that, and already be a little bit more open minded in a way I think.

So if you go into a Ruby shop, it's probably different environment for women than to go into like some, uh, low level, I don't know, toxic kind of environment, but it was definitely Hmm. Yes.

Zeke: Uh, so I'm sorry. Yeah, that was like, I hadn't thought of it. So Rails Girls I've heard from a bunch of different people was quite influential in getting, you know, for, from women started. Are you saying in the Rails community itself, maybe because of Rails Girls, they're just more women developers?

Kaja: I would actually say not in the Rails environment, but in the Ruby environment and I'm making the distinguishment because I think, um, there's a very toxic, uh, part of the Rails, uh, environment that comes from this whole DHH BaseCamp, uh, area that I don't know, there there's like some problematic, uh, discussions there, but.

[00:59:26] Ruby has inclusive values (Rails maybe not)

Kaja: Yeah, but I think Ruby in itself, the community is very inclusive because Ruby is based on like some yeah, on a manifest that is, you know, very much, um, by its nature already inclusive. So the language is written in a way that, um, it makes it easier to collaborate. And with the, you know, you always have like the reader of the code in mind that that is how Ruby was made in order to be accessible.

And, um, yeah. And, and I think with that mindset already in, in the programming language, uh, and manifested in the community around that programming language, it comes like naturally somehow that the people who are in that community are also having a bit more often. Like empathetic kind of open mind, like, and trying to make things accessible to other developers who might not understand as much as they do, or, you know, you're trying to, to write the code as readable as possible, as easy to access as possible and stuff like that. I think this comes already with a mindset that also is probably like, you know, easier to, to adapt things like, oh, maybe a person who's less privileged, you know, might have other problems than me. So I might make the job more accessible, you know, just correlates with a lot of values.

And yeah. So I would say that, um, being growing up in the Ruby community is definitely a good thi good place to start it for, for a person of who's underrepresented in tech.

Zeke: Okay. I know Code B ar, which is the, the nonprofit that I've been volunteer with as a coach also got its start from Rails Girls. So there was some Rails Girls, you know, workshops that happened. And then when the people who graduated from those workshops, you know, ended up realizing that they wanted to continue it.

They said we would like to do something similar, but more, not focused on just female developers and not just focused on the Ruby Rails community, but kind of, you know, more languages, more under folks. So that makes sense to me, you kind of, you kind of alluded to, um, not, I'll just say everything. Wasn't wine and roses and, uh, dinosaur stickers and, um, you know, can you tell a little bit more about, you know, some of the more challenging places where you go.

[01:02:14] It's a lot of work to be the only woman in engineering

Kaja: Yeah. I mean, definitely first of all, I was the only, um, woman in the team. So there were, we were like, I think when I started six people in the, um, engineering team and I was the only woman and, um, it just came with like some weird, I mean, there were, uh, the men, there were not, um, harassing me or anything like that, but like, there were still some things where I would feel like excluded or, um, other, you know, where I felt like they didn't mean to do that, but it just naturally came with the fact that I was the only woman, which, um, also there's like always this danger of like being tokenized or, um, You know, representing all women, if you are the only one in the team.

So if I would, you know, react emotional, it was like the danger of like seeing this like, oh, she's a woman. Of course she's emotional. And she represents all, all women to be emotional. Like that that's an easier thing to do if you are the only woman in the team. Right. Or if,

Zeke: Yeah. And, and, and also if they, they already are just waiting to fulfill that expectation. Right. It sounds to me like, they're like, well, we're just waiting until the moment where she proves that that that's how women are.

Kaja: Yeah. And, and I felt, you know, there were like some of these occasions were we had like team events and would all, um, sleep at like over at a place. And , you know, like I wouldn't, I would be the only one who's not sharing the room with the other people in the team and that, you know, it's like just

Zeke: You had sleepovers?

Kaja: Yeah. So we had like this, um, yeah, there were two or three of them. I think one, one was like this thing. So once a year, the company would do like this big, um, big yearly company kickoff where the whole company went on a retreat to sleep over at this big, I dunno hotel or some place. And for two or three days, you would just like be in like this intense workshops with your team.

Um, kind of planning out the whole, whole year. And, uh, I already hate the idea of that because like, what if you're a parent or something, right. Uh, this is like super annoying. Like if you're a single person and just like living to work. Yeah, no problem. But if you are having any kind of private life, this is very disruptive.

Anyway, aside from that, it was also weird because all my teammates were like, By the HR people put into our room together. And then they put me into a double room with another woman that I didn't know. And it was like, I was so weirded out on so many levels by that, because first of all, um, I'm bisexual.

So if you put me in a bed with any kind of gender, it's just like, you know, you wouldn't like naturally professionally put me in the, in the same bed with a guy. But for me that does matter. Like if it's a guy or a woman, I don't wanna sleep in the same room or bed with like a person that I don't know.

It's just weird for me. Okay. And, and like this heteronormative thinking of like, oh, she cannot sleep with the guys that she knows, but she can sleep with a woman that she doesn't know is that was like, I was like, whoa. Okay. You know? And then, uh, Yeah that. So I went to HR and I was like, um, excuse me, like, you know, this is so weird.

Like, can you put me in a private room please? And they're like, no problem. You get your private room. You're the only managers have that, but okay. I was like, yeah, what the fuck, you know? Yeah. And then, so I had my private room, but you know, in the evenings, all the guys from my team were like hanging out in the room together and like having fun.

And now it's just like alone in my room and it was, I don't know, it just felt weird. And I was like, you know, there's this little things where you, you just feel like there's this barrier that you cannot cross. And like, in our very like heteronormative way of how the society is made up and how it's like men and women and like, these are the rules.

Um, this whole thing was like a disaster in my mind. Like, I was like this, this does work on so many levels. And, um, so I felt like there was like a way of the rest of the teammates to bond with each other that I could never access. So it, because if I would've get gotten more close to them, it would've been always this weird thing that, uh, you know, is, is there something else going on?

Like, is there like a flirtatious thing or, you know, it's like, you have to be very sensitive as a woman with your male colleagues, like. How close you can get with them without that being there, being like a misinterpretation of it. And, but on the other side, if I was guy, I could be as close, I could hug them all the day long and be like, let's hang out and go for a drink later, no problem.

You know, and it like never occurs the idea that I'm meaning something else with that. So, yeah. So these guys were not mean or anything, but there there's clearly a problem if you're the only woman and in the heteronormative world, uh, that is like seen in a different way. And you always have to keep like some kind of distance to your colleagues and yeah, it's just sad because then you are always a little bit excluded from some things and, um,

Zeke: And that's a, that's a lot of work, too, to kind of constantly be having this negotiation inside of your own head about, you know, do I, you know, what, how do I handle this or should I be, you know, more open or do I need to be more defensive or something? That's hard to relax. Yeah.

Kaja: Yeah. And I mean, there were also some other problems that I had. Um, at some point I realized that I was super underpaid. Um, I, I mean, it was when, when the job was offered to me, I was like, no matter how much they pay me, it's my first job. I just wanna have it.

Zeke: Mm-hmm

Kaja: But then like after a while I was feeling like, okay, I'm actually good at this.

You know, I was like, I'm a fully like, um, useful member of this team, you know. Why should I be paid so much less? And then, um, yeah, but it was like super hard to step out of this like junior role. Right. Um, and I was always seen as like the junior, uh, and. I felt like at some point it felt like this will never stop because I'm just perceived that way.

I started here as a little chick hatching from the egg and they will never see me, you know, as a full rooster and, um, and yeah. And, uh,

Zeke: Now, now I have the picture of the rooster poking his head in the, the door. And that's you going? Cock?

Kaja: Exactly. Yeah. And, and, you know, it's, it's just, uh, yeah, so that was a problem. And I talked to her, this exact woman who actually told me about the bootcamp back then she, she is like, I don't see her very often. I see her every two years or something, but every time I see her, she has like some super valuable, crucial information for me.

[01:10:22] Claim your value, claim your salary

Kaja: And it's like, girl, you really are like, you know, you need to do this. You need to step up and. Um, that was like, we had dinner and she was like asking me how much I get paid. And she was like, no, that's not enough. You are super underpaid. You can ask for at least this and that. And, um, here's, here's what you can do.

I give you this chapter of a book that is specially for women, and there's one chapter, uh, about, uh, selling renegotiation for women. And I will send you this chapter as a PDF. You read it and follow the instructions and go and negotiate your salary please, or search for another job. Okay. And I was like, okay, thank you.

I read the chapter. I made a whole strategy, learned it by heart, went to the CTO. And I was like, I need to talk to you. and I sat down with him and like, okay, I'm not getting paid enough. And here's the things. And I was like going through the whole strategy and. We were in that room for at least half an hour.

Like both of our heads really red, cuz he was like refusing, you know, he was like, no, and if you're just in it for the money, blah, blah, blah. You know, and like his ear spread and yeah, and I was, I was thinking back then, like so many things that he said were like really bad actually. Like it, it really resonated like or how do I say it really made me change my feelings to the company and to the job.

And I mean, in the end he, he did give in, but it was a very hard fight. Uh, and it was also not like as much like the, as much as I asked for, it was like a little bit less, a lot more than what I got. But, but you know, still like

Zeke: less than what you're.

Kaja: yeah, and still not even the actual salary that I was aiming for.

And um, and it also took a while. Like he, like, he ran out of the room, like, okay, I'm going to think about this. I will tell you later. And then I like didn't approach Mo about it for a week. And then after a week I was like, Daniel, have you thought about our conversation? And then he was like, okay, okay. You know, like here's, here's my offer for you.

And, and I felt like that's, that's not nice. You know, it's like, I'm obviously not appreciated as much as I should be. And yeah. So, and another thing I had always asked for from the beginning was to have a four day working week and they always had like said no to that. And it was just, um, yeah. And then later on also, you know, it was like hard to, with, with less salary.

It's hard to ask for even less because like, you know, when you ask for a four day week. they were naturally say, okay, then you get 80% of the salary, which if you're already underpaid, it's a little bit hard to realize. And yeah, so I was like, in the end, I, um, I applied for, I actually didn't even search for another job.

The job kind of searched for me. Uh, someone approached me like here, we were searching for someone and, uh, you know, and everything, all the criteria was met there. There were women in the team. Um, they, they offered like a good salary. They said like four day, week is actually our, our normal thing. Like even the manager was like not working on Fridays and taking sabbaticals and stuff like that.

So, you know, no problem. Just, um, yeah. And then I switched to that company. I was like, uh, already the job interview was like, Made such a good impression because like the, one of the senior engineers in the room was a woman , you know, like having like a really different dynamic in the whole job interview.

It was like, not just like a bunch of guys sitting around you and you know, what do you want here? But, but there's like another woman sitting there and you, I don't know, you see in the office, like other women sitting in the engineering department and I was just like, wow. And they actually apologized that there are not 50% women.

They were like, we're still working on it. You know? And yeah. So for me that was, was why I had to switch. But I, I mean, it was after two and a half or almost three years at my first job. So, um, I, I had. A long time. I really like working there. And then there, like the last phase was where I kind of realized, okay, I'm I have to emancipate from the junior role.

Zeke: Hmm. I, I have to ask what's the name of the book?

Kaja: Um, Feminist Fight Club

Zeke: Feminist Fight Club. Ooh, that's a, that's a, that's a dynamic title.

Kaja: Yeah, yeah. It, it, it refers to the movie, the fight club and it's, uh, like the manifest is really funny. It's like the first few words in the book are, um, so the feminist fight club has like the opposite, um, rule. So the first rule of the fight club is you talk about the fight club with other women

[01:15:57] Find your dancing star (mentors take many forms)

Zeke: Well, and that part definitely, you know, worked out. I mean, the, that person, that woman that you were talking to, you know, is clearly a mentor. And, um, and I've, I'm fascinated by this because I, I also think that many people mistake the mentor relationship. They think that mentors should be X, Y, or Z. They have a very narrow definition for what mentors look like.

But I have found, you know, in my life that, you know, mentors often can be, you know, like little dancing stars, almost like just kind of like dance through every once in a while. And they just remind you like, oh, I'm on a journey. And the next step is now available to me and that, and that's cuz cuz mentors are usually just the best mentors are usually just far enough ahead of you for you to, for them to be accessible.

Right. Not. And if they're infinitely far ahead of you, you can't relate to what that, that is that they have to go through, but you know, just kind of spin, right. You know, right in front of you. You're like, oh, well, yes, that sounds perfect. I would like to have more salary.

Kaja: Yeah, that's, that's such a nice picture of like the dancing star. Cause she definitely, like, for me, the feeling I have is like, yeah, like something like a lucky charm or I don't know, it's just, uh, I'm super lucky that I met her in exactly the right moments in my life. And I got exactly this kind of, not only the information, but how it was delivered, you know. It's also, she has like an amazing personality and is very uplifting and very like powerful in her words.

So, um, yeah, so it always encouraged me to talk to her and

Zeke: cool.

Kaja: Yeah, that's and exactly, she was just like a little bit ahead of me, like one year more into the whole process and. In the end, just could like kind of even out the way for me by, you know, learning from her experiences and giving them back to me.

Zeke: The first rule of Feminist Fight Club is to talk about Feminist Fight Club.

Kaja: Yeah. Yeah. I love that title. It's just like, sometimes this like a little bit radical approach approaches to things, um, can like have just the right amount of power to get you moving, you know, and yeah, I think people often mistake the world, uh, radical or radicalization for something very violent and very bad, but actually it can also mean a very good thing.

And sometimes you have to be very radical in your decisions in order to really change the status quo because you know, it's also sometimes comfortable not to be radical. but to, to go out out of this, like comfortable, like it's okay. I can, you know, I can move on like this. I don't have to make the change, but no, like sometimes you just have to, you know, be in the Feminist Fight Club and like be radical and just fight for your salary and really go all the way there and be like, you know what, if you, if you think I'm just in it for the money, uh, yeah, I will go to a company that just gives me the money.

Zeke: Well, I, I would like to just call out that there's and this, this is a trope that goes way back, because there were so many people who got into tech, kind of like you, they just like to solve the puzzles and they just didn't write software and they would do it in their spare time. But when you start doing it for money, You are no longer doing it in your spare time and you like, you're the, the, you're only in that relationship with that company because they pay you like, that is fundamentally there.

And I think some companies still think like, oh, we should find out if their motivation is not for money. I'm like, do you have your company for a motivation other than money? Because I suspect that that's not true either because you, I mean, like, that's why you started a company, right? I mean, otherwise it would just be your hobby and you would just do it in your basement and there would be no employing of other people.

Right. And there's open source projects that are like this, right. That are just like people spending their spare time. And then you know that

everybody who's doing it, they're, they're doing it for the passion of doing it. Not for the money, but that's

[01:20:24] Beware of pushing unpaid labor

Kaja: I mean, open source is just a whole other thing, man. I think, you know, it's such a beautiful idea of this like perfect world where everybody, you know, doesn't. Have to be mindful of their time and can just like work on this together and contribute to open source. But like the reality looks different. The reality is like, uh, as women, we have to do a lot of unpaid care work aside from work that is paid.

And like, when do I then have the time to like, you know, go to an open source project and just tinker around in my free time. This is another thing that is like pissing me off so much that there seems to be this, uh, yeah, subtle, I don't know, thought of oh, you know, but if you're not like also programming in your free time, are you then really an engineer?

Like, you know, if you just do it in your working hours, that's like so weird, you know? And I feel like, no, that's not weird. Uh, sorry. First of all, like. I have a physical body, you know, and, uh, that needs to breathe and move and, you know, touch things and see like things that are further away than 30 centimeters from my nose, you know?

And, um, yeah, so first of all, dead, and second of all, you know, if you are a woman with children or a woman with, uh, parents that need care or, you know, a woman with, uh, all of these things that you do, usually like you have, uh, also your partner needs like your time and attention all the time and stuff like that.

So, yeah. So I think this is open source really has like a misconception and, and I, I love the idea of like open source, um, as a concept of let's, you know, just share knowledge and, um, make it open for everyone to contribute. But on the other side, I feel like there's this huge problem and imbalance of, you know, women not being able to contribute so much and also open source, uh, being often very hostile against people and contributors from outside.

And yeah, that's a whole other topic to talk about and.

Zeke: Well, maybe, maybe that is another topic to talk about. I, I mean, my experience, you know, I haven't done really anything in open source because the companies I worked with were not really big on giving back into open source. And I think a little bit of what you're talking about. Out, you can talk about like the first of all, the, his history of open source originally open source was pretty much done by academics, right?

So they all had a different job and this is kind of, or they were, they had some protected status that allowed them to fiddle around with more philosophical software, right. Whereas like when you're in a business environment, private source makes sense because you know, you'd have to take it.

Now, mind you open source has really impacted the, the tech community in the world, but there's a lot of open source projects. A lot of open source work that I think is not appropriately funded or recognized or like that, even though it's part of the critical systems and you kind of allude to this, that, you know, there's unpaid labor. And they're part of our systems are actually reliant on unpaid labor and you don't even realize that you're reliant anyway.

I think we could, that would be a, that's a really big topic. So I

Kaja: I think I, I want to go give a little recommendation because there's a really good talk from Coraline Ada Ehmke out there about, um, how disappointed she is an open source. And she is like one of the, I think, most influential people in, in, a lot of open source communities and gave a lot of contributions, but she get a lot of hate.

And she gave a talk about this at the Heroku in Vienna. I, I dunno which year that was, I think 2018 maybe. Um, uh, she gave a talk about this and it was a talk where we were like in the audience. I remember we were like, most of us standing ovations with like tears coming down and you know, like this kind of talk where you're like, after this, how can anyone else give a talk at this conference?

This is like,

Zeke: Oh, my God.

Kaja: yeah, it was, it was very impactful and I love her talk and I, I tend to rewatch it now and then, and just like, yeah, remind myself.

Zeke: Maybe, maybe you can find it and send me a link so that I can put it in the show notes

Kaja: Yes, definitely.

Zeke: I'll also put the book in the show notes too.

The whole call has been super fascinating. It's all kinds of, uh, great topics. I was wondering, um, we talked about food, we talked about taking care of the body and other ones like that. Do you have something you can recommend as like your favorite food or the thing that you kind of toss out to?

Kaja: Oh yeah. Um, if you.

Zeke: So I specifically am always exploring and wanting to try new things and especially by people who are interesting, I'm curious what it is that they.

[01:26:10] Potatoes are the new smart food

Kaja: Um, yeah, so, uh, first of all, like I'm so into food and my favorite food is carbohydrates. Um, that's really like, and

Zeke: Potato chips.

Kaja: Potatoes, noodles, Kuku bread, anything that has carbs in it. I'm such a big fan of it. And I want to just say like people out there, if you think carbs are like the evil that you're wrong, your brain needs energy and energy is in carbs.

So please eat carbs if you're using your brain, this is really important. and, um, yeah, so I'm. I would say that, um, my favorite food is probably a very minimalistic thing. It's just mashed potatoes with olive of oil and garlic. And I just love that

Zeke: Okay. I was just gonna say mashed potatoes are like, I mean, Primo, I, I mean actually potatoes. I mean, you're, you're, you're speaking. When I said, made a joke about potato chips. It's like all types of potatoes are pretty magical as far as I'm concerned.

Kaja: Yeah.

Zeke: Yeah. Do you have

Kaja: And butter

Zeke: I'm yeah. Mash or actually one of my favorite plays ways to eat mashed potatoes is with avocado and tamari.

Kaja: Yeah. You know that my mom, actually, she told me that this was the only thing I would eat as a baby. I was like refusing to eat the mashed stuff from the glass, you know, the mashed fruits and

Zeke: Good move. Good move.

Kaja: And she had to feed me, uh, mashed potatoes with avocado and olive of, or because that was the only thing I liked.

And like one of my first words was avocado. And I was kind of, I didn't know how to pronounce it. I was always saying Alka, Alka. I want Alka. And I got one for my first birthday as a present because I was just like, so into it.

Zeke: Well, that's that's this is, we're getting back to hedonistic priorities again, right? Like avocados. Yeah.

Kaja: Yeah.

Zeke: I, you know, I, I, I, I could show you, but it's hard. I have a potato and an avocado as tattoos on my legs. I've one with roots and I have an avocado with roots on my calves.

Kaja: That's so funny. I feel like we're soulmates or

Zeke: Well, I mean, there's little, little pieces that are lined up there. I, um, yeah, potatoes. Right. Well, I mean, we both live in Berlin, so it's possible that we could go like that. Is there a place that has really great mashed potatoes? Is there a, a restaurant that has really great mashed potatoes?

Kaja: That's, that's, that's really tough question because I think. You know, homemade mashed potatoes are really hard to top. Um,

Zeke: That's true.

Kaja: I think one of my favorite restaurants in Berlin in general is this, um, it's a Turkish restaurant a little bit on the expensive side. It's called Osman Töchter, which means Osman's daughters and it's, um, Turkish cuisine with the influence of French cuisine.

So, yeah, so I would definitely recommend eating there and they, I think they also have mashed potatoes

Zeke: Well, maybe, uh, Maybe we do a double date, you and your husband and me and my husband, me and my . There we go. Me and my, my wife. I don't even know why I to

Kaja: As in our partners,

Zeke: Yeah, we, we, we can do a double date, us and our partners go to the Osman Töchter. Osmans Töchter talk Töchter,

Kaja: Yeah.

Zeke: Osmans Töchter. Um, this has been a fantastic talk.

I, um, I honestly would hope to, you know, talk to you again, either in person or if we decide that we need to do another interview, I would totally do it. Um, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all these things. I, I don't even know how to organize it. It's got so much stuff in there.

Kaja: Well, it's funny cuz when we started talking, I wasn't feeling so good, but now I feel great. It was like, I don't know, just very uplifting conversation and I feel so much better now. Thank you.

Zeke: You know, I have the, I have up, you know, I have uplift tattooed on my calves right next to the potato and avocado.

Kaja: That's so funny. yeah.

Zeke: But for me too, uplift is a great way. It's a, um, yeah. Gives me a whole bunch of things to think about, uh. Thank you so much.

Kaja: Yeah, thank you too. And, um, I hope you can enjoy some of that. Uh holyness today.

Zeke: Oh yeah. We'll, I'll totally reserve that

Kaja: Don't edit today.

Zeke: either. No, nothing else. Just after this, it's just all me wandering around and doing whatever I want.

Kaja: cool. Okay.

Zeke: All right. Chow.