P2P Podcast Series: Julia Swidron from Powerpoint to React
Refactoring is the name of the game for Julia Swidron (LinkedIn, Portfolio). She rewrites legacy frontend experiences at Deloitte, one of the biggest consultancies in the world.
She didn't have a linear path. She started in graphic design, but soon realized that she would burn out as a profession. She was exploring her options in different cities when she got an internship at Maersk, which turned out to be a perfect launchpad.
In our chat, we talk about moving around, making engineering choices as an extrovert, and writing code without calling herself a developer.
This episode is packed with insights about:
- (00:07:07) What is it like as a software consultant at Deloitte?
- (00:16:37) What gets you excited about refactoring legacy code?
- (00:20:15) What does socialized engineering look like?
- (00:27:40) Python was my first attempt at coding, and it didn't stick
- (00:32:15) Homework was not enough to get the job (some self-teaching required)
- (00:42:20) The magic of translating ideas between technical to non-technical
- (00:46:52) She sent 250 job applications to find Deloitte
- (00:51:07) What makes a good manager?
- (01:02:26) Julia is explicit with journaling and organizing
- (01:05:20) Notetaking can become brainstorming
Mentions:
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Zeke Arany-Lucas is a developer, coach, and consultant from Seattle, living and working in Berlin since 2014. He has been in the tech industry for more than 25 years, starting with browser platform development, including long stints at both Microsoft and Amazon in multiple leadership roles. You can also follow him on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.
Artwork by Emre Aydogan & Laura Diezler — ©️2022 Zeke Arany-Lucas
Read the full transcript
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hello and welcome to The Introspective Developer. My name is Zeke Arany-Lucas, and I am talking with software developers who start their career without a computer science degree. We find out what drives them and how they think. I am convinced that building the best software engineering teams requires better diversity by hiring more entry level devs from outside the traditional grad pipelines.
Okay. In today's show, we're gonna be talking with Julia and, and actually Julia has a very, uh, interesting last name. Can you, can you say your name for me?
Julia Swidron: Uh, yes. I'm uh, Julia Swidron.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Okay. See, now it's even stranger. Where, where does this name come from?
Julia Swidron: Uh, it's uh, from Poland.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Huh? Cause when I looked it up, I just, you know, Google. Swidron. I, I couldn't, I couldn't find any references. In fact, there's like, um, you know, I'm Google gives me United States results because I'm a United States person, right. So it there's like one Swidron in 1920 in Indiana. Like that's how rare the name is.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, I think it's only my family that holds onto that name. And we are mostly, we are in few countries, but mostly in Poland,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Like, is there some meaning to the name itself?
Julia Swidron: I have no clue that not at all, usually Polish names, last names have some meaning, but our is very random. All we can think is that 'Swi' could come from 'Swie', but that would be from swine, but it, so it doesn't make sense. Like,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I don't know. It could be like pig farmers or something, you know? I mean, professions. Farmer is a Miller farmer, baker Smith. I mean, these are all pretty common names.
Julia Swidron: Yeah. But then I, I don't know. It doesn't, yeah, it would have a little bit different version. Like we would say differently and Polish, like different ending of that name. So it is very special, I would say. And
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Oh,
Julia Swidron: unusual, but abroad, I have to spell it out. So usually I'm not saying that I, oh, I'm Julia Swidron and just, oh, I'm Julia S w I D R O.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Uh, I can relate, um, you know, even my first name Zeke. Is it's was, it's pretty uncommon in America, too. Um, so most people misspell it or they mishear it. Um, but in Germany it's even worse. People really just don't understand that it's a first name. Like they just kind of want to reject it. So they'll even put it at the, um, they'll put it in a different spot on the form.
They'll just kind of say, oh yeah, this probably not really his name, you know? And they'll use my last name, which is hyphenated. And they'll say that must be his first name. So they'll be like, you know, Herr Zecke. And of course, then on top of that, the, the way it's written is like, it looks like tick, which is the little, you know, insect that sucks your blood.
So the people don't even wanna say that out loud. It's kind of like, eh, let's just not say it.
So when you, when you meet somebody, you named Swidron, is it always somebody from your family then?
Julia Swidron: Well, I never met someone that wasn't from my family, but maybe I still have, um, that coming up in my life.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I still to, to be decided somebody might, there might be out there. Although, you know, it'd be cool. If you go to the United States and you run into somebody, you know, how many generations before, you know, like you get tagged up.
Julia Swidron: Um, well only like three or four, maybe because like before war, like, yeah. I, I, we don't know really much,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Mm mm-hmm
Julia Swidron: but I was actually in the US before, so I lived there already and I haven't met the, there,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: where, where did you live in the US?
Julia Swidron: uh, in New York.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: What neighborhood? Which one are the borough?
Julia Swidron: Well, so, well, like everyone from abroad, I lived in New Jersey and then, uh, commuted to New York. But
Zeke Arany-Lucas: so not really New
Julia Swidron: yeah, not really,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: oh man.
Julia Swidron: then I can tell you like the city in suburbs of New Jersey. Like no one would know. And then we get out to same conclusion also. It's basically New York, especially in Europe. That's enough an answer.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I would think, you know, after TV shows like the Jersey Shore than people would, you know, you know, know what New Jersey is a little bit more part.
Julia Swidron: Yeah. But then I think when you tell someone that you lived in different state, they, we like, they really think that, oh, I would have to like drive for hours, especially with the stereotypes that it's very far in the us, which I mean, it is, and it wasn't like my ideal commute, but then it wasn't longer than commuting around Berlin and, uh, yeah.
People. So I just skip it basically. But then on the other hand, when I was living in the US, I would say that I'm from Europe and that was also enough of the information for them.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Far away, I am from super far away.
Julia Swidron: Yeah.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: So actually this kind of is nice spring circle cuz you know, we're both living in Berlin and the way that it, uh, I got a referral from you is I think a pretty cool, uh, what in Germans they call it vitamin B. ever heard about this? So vitamin B is, it's not what you know, it's who, you know, so our mutual friend, Monica, uh, you know, said, you know, she actually heard about my podcast cuz I go to this cafe all the time in the last year since Corona started well since.
Not since Corona started, but I changed some of my habits during Corona. And so now I go to this cafe, which is my favorite cafe. There's all these interesting people, artists and freelancers and, um, whatever, just, you know, neighborhood denizens, they all go to this cafe and Monica is one of those people.
And so as I was talking to different people, it kind of comes up and, and I said, oh yeah, I'm doing a podcast. And I'm looking for software developers and she's like, oh, oh, oh, I know one. I know one. And then I'm like, oh yeah, that's a cool one. She's like, oh, I got another one. Oh, oh, oh, I got, I got two more.
She's she's all like, how many, like, could she add to my queue? And I'm like, that's so cool. You know, that, you know, Berlin is so small that you just kind of run into people and then they're, they're like, I don't know, helping you out. How, how do you know Monica?
Julia Swidron: Uh, I know her from a mutual friend and, uh, we just met at my friend's birthday party.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Ah, see just casual social stuff.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, you never know what your network
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Yeah, and yeah, the network it's always expanding.
[00:07:07] What is it like as a software consultant at Deloitte?
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Okay. So, uh, we can actually get, I guess, to the meat of the show, which is, uh, tell me a little bit about what you're doing right now and how you became a software developer.
Julia Swidron: Um, well, so what I'm doing right now is, uh, I am a consultant at, uh, Deloitte and I work for the digital part of it. So I work in, uh, frontend development. And we are yeah. Just consulting clients and, uh, working on their website, currently.
And, uh, it's a bit unusual development setting, I would say with the projects changing. So you're really just changing teams and working like starting usually websites. So you're not a lot of times not seeing A to Z you're just like in the moment working on a project. But, um, yeah. So how did I got there or should I explain some more about what I do.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Well, you know, now I'm thinking like Deloitte, what does Deloitte do?
Julia Swidron: Okay. So, um, usually just audit and they're known for consulting and it's one of the big four consultancy firms. And, um, they basically have clients and help them, um, fix their businesses or get it them better. So, um, in some cases we have people that come to a company they figure out, or like, actually you're losing a lot of money because your website is like ridiculously bad.
And then they write project on why the website is bad. And, uh, I'm in the team that comes after and develops
Zeke Arany-Lucas: We, we will name no names here about what ridiculously bad website, but can you give an example of like, what characteristics would be identifying? Like, you'd say this one is definitely bad.
Julia Swidron: Um, you know, it's usually just, you look at the website and you've seen that it was like from early two thousands, like early anything works, but even some more modern website. So right now we working, I'm not going to name the client because it's very irrelevant, but then we are working just on the website that was very slow and the whole user experience was, uh, bad.
A lot of people would just drop out. So first we had like people to figure out why is it happening? And then now our challenge is to build the website, according to the, the designers. But then we also have to make sure that it's really optimized because the website will go live in few years in the future.
So it's kind of interesting concept also to just work with like the newest technology. So we have, so we can like kind of predict what's going to be like the top technology in like four or five years when the website is actually live fully.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I, I couldn't tell you what the top technology is gonna be in six months. I mean, for web technology, frontend stuff, it's like, you know, you say something like Svelte and you're like, yeah, but that was last week.
Julia Swidron: Yeah.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I mean speak, speaking of web technologies, what was the one that was really crazy this week Bun?
Did you hear about Bun?
Julia Swidron: No.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Okay, so like there was Node, right. And I remember when node came out based on the V8 engine and it was like, wow, this is pretty cool. I mean, I, this is somewhere 2010 ish, I think, you know, cuz it's based off the Chrome V8 engine and it was kind of theoretically and then, you know, the node became old when they came out with Deno, right?
Deno is like, well that's the stuff that people should be using. Don't use Node for your backend, use Deno. Some people did, but now Bun, it is um, a replacement for both Node and Deno, but doesn't require you to update, like to radically change your products. It'll work with both of 'em and it'll just make your backend like 10 times as fast.
Julia Swidron: Oh, okay.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: That nice. And specifically it's about like resolution of dependencies and, uh, uh, and has like TypeScript built in. So has a TypeScript, transpiler built into it. So you don't have to have a separate transpiler.
Julia Swidron: Oh, nice.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: And it's, and this is like, literally, it's just like, oh yeah, last week. There's Bun.
So if you were working on Node or Deno, so 10 years ago.
Julia Swidron: Yeah. I mean, um, of course we cannot predict, but then also, because we're working for bigger companies, because that's usually what clients are. Those are like the big companies that they want to start something. So we kind of cannot experiment too much with the technology. We have a lot of research that goes into which one we can actually use and which one is going to be stable, like which libraries and everything.
So I would say the process is quite complex. And for now I'm not in the team that is deciding on what we use, but
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Can you, can you share one of the technologies that is forecasted to be stable? Just so I can,
Julia Swidron: Well, I, so Style Components.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm.
Julia Swidron: So that's something that we put a bet on that is going to be stable, and it's not that popular yet compared to like SASS and everything. So,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Tailwind?
Julia Swidron: um,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Style Components, first Tailwind, maybe sometime later,
Julia Swidron: well, we'll see.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Uhhuh.
Julia Swidron: but basically for us, it was just, um, more of like concept of micro services and just in general modernizing. And then at some point, of course you can switch it up and we, uh, I think have different way of writing code than what I know from the previous company.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm.
Julia Swidron: We very, um, we have to be prepared for everything to be changed because we basically have few deadlines to publish the website and we are publishing like part by part. But then we are handing over every part that's published to different team to maintain it in the future.
So, um, we are prepared that they might not like it. And, uh, just want to know how to really maintain it that way. So it's all like ready to be changed, as well.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: All right. So you, like, you're talking about taking some company who, I'm just gonna guess, does not specialize in technology to begin with is not a, is not a serious kind of software company. Um, so maybe it's maybe a retail company or something like that. We'll just say, you know, yeah. We'll just call it a, a random retail company that needs to build a website to sell something.
Maybe they hacked it together themselves with what, like no code, or did they maybe hire some contractors that, uh, you know, took the money and ran? Or what, how did they end up in this situation?
Julia Swidron: Um, well, I think that the situation was good, but the company started like when they first opened the website, it was fine. And then it's also a bit more complex because it's, um, like the company owns multiple co inside, like smaller companies and we want to have it all kind of together. So that's why they need help mostly.
So it works for everyone. And if everything has to work for everyone, it's very different job than, um, one, one firm. Started like back in the day, very simple online store, and now it just overgrew it and became very slow and just outdated. And instead of, um, hiring new people to, um, yeah, write it from scratch, train them and everything.
They just decided on one like Deloitte as a consultancy firm, also for the business side. But then there's also another companies involved, which are just the IT consultancies, like strictly IT.
So, um, there's a lot of work for first few months, but then we're basically handing it over. So someone else will maintain it and we will train them. We will explain everything, probably spend a lot of time on like hyper care of the website. And then we just say goodbyes and move to the next projects.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Mm, this original website and then the kind of future website, is it like, are you trying to be consistent with the, the core technology you'd have there? Or do you actually replace the whole thing? Like if they come to you with like a WordPress site, do you give them back a Gatsby site or something?
[00:16:37] What gets you excited about refactoring legacy code?
Julia Swidron: Um, it makes like, it wasn't as bad as WordPress or like, you know, but it's, uh, we definitely change most of it. And, uh, we have a way to working partially on it because it's well online store. So then we have different, uh, parts. Like the checkout will be different release. The product page will be a different release.
So for now we have a way to blend them together. So it looks similar, but in the, under the hood, it's very, very different. And. The technology like is not to compare.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Yeah, that's good. That's the incremental refactoring, right? Where you're saying, like, we don't replace everything all at once, but we, you know, replace, you know, basically components on the page, piece by piece. And do maybe, do you do some kind of remote or something? Like if one is on WordPress and the other ones on, I don't know is.
Where would the other one be?
Julia Swidron: We just, uh, it's not on WordPress either. but, uh, we just have different URLs, different structure of URL. So then you kind of switch around and for now, like the pages that we change are not the crucial ones. So for now we are starting with the smaller things also to release it slowly so we can have time to, like, we will publish something very soon. In one specific country on one subpage of that country's site and then see how many bugs we find and, uh, then we will move to next subpage of that page.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I, I like the way you have a big smile on your face, as you're talking about this, what is it that it, that appeals to you about this style of work or this way of kind of working.
Julia Swidron: Um, well I am very extroverted person, so then I get very easily bored of stuff. So I'm very into like the changing environment. Cuz one thing that I could not imagine myself at was just working in like one repository that you kind of know every single line in it. Everything. And in this environment, I would say it's a bit more frustrating to start, but then when you get to the flow that, oh, you'll have probably another project coming up.
So I ultimately had two projects in the company. I've been there for like, not even a year, but then, uh, you change it around, people change around and then everything is more dynamic and they really like that.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm. That's cool. I, I kind of think, um, one of the things you're referring to here that I've seen many times in the past is territorial developers, right? So developers that are working on their project and they, they really wanna stay inside of this project. It can grow, it can change, but they really want to stay there.
And they also don't want other people to, to change the tone or something like this. And you're kind of coming it from the opposite angle you're coming. Like I'm a foreigner into so a foreign code project, and you're gonna have to translate it into some modern form, but then also make sure that it's still socialized.
Like that the, the thing you produce will still have to be accessible and maintainable and valuable, really, to somebody else.
[00:20:15] What does socialized engineering look like?
Julia Swidron: Yeah. So I really believe that the code should be written like in a simple way, so everyone can read it and understand it. and it's something that I think this way of working really allows because you are very ready to, especially with like firm, like Deloitte, we're very, um, high up quality assurance.
So then we would have a lot of people reading your code, a lot of people commenting, like the way you have to name variables. Everything is very, has to be very clear.
And I think like when you're used to just switching around like parts of repository reviewing someone's code, and then the way that we work, that we don't have like one person who's doing like one side and like, it has his few files that then you open and you just don't understand what's going on because it's very easy to write code that you will only understand.
But I think in this way, everyone has to understand it. So the code is better.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm. How do, how do you, what kinds of, what kinds of tools or how do you socialize your code in this way? Right. I mean, you're, is it like, are there formal review processes, meaning that you must go through seven code reviews, but the, you know, as they go up the levels or something, I.
Julia Swidron: Um, so we tried a few things because we also like, uh, yeah, beginning stages of the project, we had a few different attitudes. But basically we, um, either have at least two reviewers that have to review our code and approve. And it's all in GitHub. So you just have to like have two reviews before you can merge it.
But then also what we do currently is that we would have a meeting where the developer that's working on some pull request will explain what's going on. Will go like file by file what's changed, why their changes were made and then developers can check it out locally, test it out and approve or disapproved the code.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm. How many people are you working closely? Like in that, that regard
Julia Swidron: Uh, just five.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Just there's five of you and what's the kind of experience levels. The variation in.
Julia Swidron: Um, so we have two junior developers and, uh, we have one frontend architect and yeah, the other two are senior, um, developers.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Okay. Are you, are you a junior developer then?
Julia Swidron: Yes.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Okay. How long have you been a developer?
Julia Swidron: Um, like full-time developer, I would say only since October , but before that, my position in the other company was kind of mixed and, uh, that's how I started. So it could be like only since October or like almost two years.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Okay. Here's a, a different kind of question. At what point did you feel like you were a developer?
Julia Swidron: Um, well even I think like it wouldn't describe myself as a developer first. Like, you know, it's still for me, interesting, because for me, like developing is a tool and, uh, I really like developing, don't get me wrong. But then for me, it's more like a tool to like, get things done that I want to get done. And, uh, I think it's, um, quite hard for me to like relate because I'm not very like a geeky person.
I'm not like that much that I like read brief and like just live code. So I wouldn't say that I'm like very developer because I think a lot of people, when I would say, oh, I work as a developer and they would be like, oh, okay. And then they have image of me just watching Star Wars on Friday nights.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I'm sorry. I, I mean, so coming from the perspective of Star Wars came out when I was six years old. And in fact it changed my life and the life of almost everybody else around me. So I, it might have been one of those people that's were watching Star Wars on a Saturday night. Not that not withstanding. I actually totally agree with you.
That code is only a tool, right? Like it's, there's, it is not the thing. It is not the thing that we're doing. It is the it's the, the I'm gonna say the incantation.
Julia Swidron: Mm-hmm
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Right? It's the sorcery that allows us to do what we care about. So it's, you know, like the results, the interaction.
Julia Swidron: Yeah,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I, yeah, so, so what is it that you like, why is it that code is worth learning?
You know, like you'd actually said, this is what I'm really doing. And code is just the tool.
Julia Swidron: Um, well, for me it was that, uh, I just wanted to see stuff I wanted to be dependent and I started so maybe. I will also say like how I just got into coding in general, because it's very related. So, um, I started my career in tech as a graphic designer. That's what I was doing in New York. But then, um, I didn't like the pressure of creative work that much.
I didn't have enough, uh, creativity and, uh, I liked, uh, art and just like graphic design to be my hobby. And I still do it like on the free time, but I didn't want it to be my job. I didn't want to sit 40 hours a week or like 60 hours a week just drawing because I was like, I will lose my mind. I, and everything looks like ugly.
So then I was like, okay, so what's kind of related, but then, uh, like I can also do it. And that's how I got into, um, UI/UX. I tried around, I took like some online courses like everyone does. And then, uh, when I did like a few prototypes, I was like, how hard it is to code it. And I just wanted to see it. I was like, because in my head, coding was always very like complex topic.
And it was also like you see in the movies, it's just like random letters on the screen. And now I know that that's not how coding looks like. I never seen anything like that, but I was very like, yeah, I'm probably just too stupid to try to figure that out.
So I started just doing small things and a very simple website. My first website was so ugly, but. Very simple. But then I was like, well, okay, if I managed to do this, I can probably manage to do something a bit harder.
And you know, it just went up.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: What, what was the, the first language kind of stack that? Where you, you build something you said, okay, this, this could work for me.
[00:27:40] Python was my first attempt at coding, and it didn't stick
Julia Swidron: Um, well, so I actually had like two attempts. First one was to learn Python because that was hot at the moment. And everyone was just like, when you Googled what to learn to code like which language coding language to learn, it was all just Python, Python, Python. And I was like, okay, let's try it out. In worst case, I'm not going to learn.
And then, uh, for me it was fun, but it was also like quite abstract. And I was like, well, I'm just adding numbers to numbers. Like I can do that probably in calculator. Like it doesn't seem to me like much. And, uh, I think I dropped it off quite like quite quickly because I am very visual person. I like to see stuff that I'm working on.
So then, um, I just, uh, started looking into frontend development. So that's the only part of development that I actually know. I know now some more backend because like, when you work with more people, you just see what they do, but I just, uh, do frontend and I just started with HTML, CSS then JavaScript, TypeScript, React and Vue all of that came later on. But that was something that I first got into.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: But still, like, was there, were you just writing raw HTML files on a, on a server or were, I mean, what was that first one? You said my, this is my website and I like it.
Julia Swidron: Well, my FA first website was just on my computer. So like, you know, just opened in my, uh, C uh, drive. And that was it.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Uhhuh
Julia Swidron: But, um, I think that was like one of the first moments. Then I went to school where I was pushed into doing more. So I went to the school that I had the multimedia design degree, because I was scared to commit to anything at that point.
And it's only like, uh, associate degree. So in that school I could experiment a bit more. And then, um, I realized that there was this one website, which was also kind of stupid.
Like, it was just very silly game that I did, but like very silly. I mean, very silly. Like it only had like, You press on hearts. Like, that's it that's the whole game. And if you don't, the raccoon is very unhappy. So that was the whole game.
And I was like, whoa, but I made it like, it moves, it changes. It was like still just vanilla, HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. But then I was like, oh, I can do illustrations because I know how, um, how to draw SVGs.
So I had like, I made the illustrations and I was like, oh, that's my little baby. Like this very silly game with stupid music that I spent way too much time on. Like, it wasn't even credited for my school. Like, it was just that they were like, oh, if you can, you can try like, as a project for like a month.
And I was like, I will try and I will do it. And I did it.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Nice. And then where'd you go from there?
Julia Swidron: Um, so in meanwhile, when I was, uh, so that was in Copenhagen and I was studying this multimedia design degree, whatever that means, I'm still. It was very like focused on entrepreneurship and like how to combine design with communications, with development. So it was very interesting degree, but it kind of didn't like focus on anything.
So we have
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I, I just have to, I wanna pause you for a second there, because I think I've seen this degree now a couple of times, I feel like it's the school's version of a non-committal degree, right? It's like, it kind of waves all these, like, it could be anything. So as long as you're thinking, oh, I might be interested in those, then you could sign up for the school, but then it's not clear what you'd get out of any of those things, because none of them, cause you kind of have to go deep in any particular one in order to get enough out of it, right.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, I think it also depends on the school really. And my school was the way we worked was that we had clients from like the very beginning we would have client for like about a month or two months. And they would have issue. We would have to solve the issue. And a lot of time it was like website. Like the deliverable would be a website or a social media campaign or whatever we would find was the issue.
[00:32:15] Homework was not enough to get the job (some self-teaching required)
Julia Swidron: But in one of those schools, it really depends what you want to learn and you really have to want to learn something. I wouldn't say that just going there is enough to get you a job, because if you just want to pass the homeworks and all of the checks, it's very, very easy. I would say like,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm.
Julia Swidron: You have to kind of pick.
And we had to, at some point we had a choice to either go with more design classes or more development classes, but it was still not that advanced, like we only had, I think, two weeks of React at the end of the last semester. So
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Mm, just a taste
Julia Swidron: like, be a developer just with that. And I don't think you can be designer also with just what my friends were doing.
So it's really, it's a good start. And then, uh, also depends on your internship placement because you have to do internship during that school too. So it really is up to you to educate yourself and they give you chances. But.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: they give you chances, but you still have to, you have to take them.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, because it's like the clients that we got connected. A lot of people, I know they got internships later on with the clients that we were working on and it's also building your portfolio. So if you, uh, at the end of school, I think I had like 10 projects from different clients that I could show to on my GitHub or just on the, my portfolio website.
I was like, okay. So here's like some of the client work that I did that I liked. And then you work in small teams. So you also learn how to collaborate and it, it all depends how much you want to give and how much you want to spend.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Mm-hmm. So how did you get from there to Deloitte? Is Deloitte your first professional development job?
Julia Swidron: No, but my way, it was kind of weird because I, when I was in Copenhagen, I applied for, a lot of jobs because Copenhagen is very expensive city. I don't know if you've been, but it is very expensive. So as a student, I wanted to have a student's job. And then I, uh, applied for student assistant position at, uh, Maersk, which is a shipping company,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Mm.
Julia Swidron: But they were in the process of transportation, uh, transformation from shipping company. So they, they still do shipping. Like that's what they earn money on and everything.
But then now they're more focused on being container logistics company. So they have very big it team growing up and that they just needed someone to, uh, help them make the slides free, help them with some, uh, communications and just join the team.
And, uh, I joined the team of, uh, cloud engineering. So then I was like, well, okay. So I, I don't know much, but then I was working with this cloud team and I just was meeting people. And we started this, um, project where we had to explain to people how cloud works, how is used at the company. And, uh, they have a lot of products, a lot of product owners, and then they didn't took advantage of the cloud that was provided.
So then I got more technical because I had to record and edit, like, and make animations for videos, explaining how to use cloud, which is very technical. And at some point we had the, my manager, um, was asking me if I know any UI designers and the developers from my school. And I was like, well, good that you ask. And then I was like, of course I can help with that.
Because I told him that I want to do more, less creative job and more technical. So after like few months there, I started helping on like internal platform. And I was really having a lot of freedom. I was working with very talented developers that were doing like the big jobs.
And then they would give me like smaller, like, oh, we just need to show like, whatever ranking or like list of something or create a calendar page. So then they would give it to me and I would design it and then develop it. And I had like teammates helping me out. So I had a lot of training on that as well.
I took some like cloud certifications, as well, to know how to work in this. And, uh, it kind of worked out.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: That sounds like you got lucky a little bit. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, cuz.
Let me, let me recap it so that I make sure I understood what happened is, you know, you're, you're going to school in Copenhagen and your school is little ambiguous, whether it's gonna give you the kind of results that you would like, it gives you some opportunities.
But, um, you're, you're already understanding that it's, it's not super good at giving you hard skills, but because Copenhagen is expensive, then you're going in going into one of these student, uh, work programs. And you're finding a place where they'll hire somebody with a multimedia from the multimedia school.
And then they put you in, basically it sounds like the PowerPoint team is that right where they're basically creating slide decks and presentations.
Julia Swidron: Well at first. Yeah. Uh, but then, um, the transition wasn't that drastic that like from PowerPoints straight to development, because I spent quite a bit of time to, um, In making the videos with other people about, uh, cloud and technology. So.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Well, this is, this is where it got interest to me. So like, there's this, you wouldn't say, oh yeah, that was a great move, you know, to, you know, for your technical decision is to be in the PowerPoint team, but in there you actually met other people and you, you volunteered to do things that were kind of OutCo outside your normal scope of responsibility.
You said, Hey, you know what? I actually do wanna be more technical and it looks like that's a technical job and maybe how we get there. And, and they were like, Hey, I don't wanna do that work. Sure. Let's see what you do with it. I mean, is that kind of, it's kind of what it sounded like they were, they didn't mean to hire you for this job, but then you kind of wormed your way sideways.
And once you were doing, it's like, they're not gonna complain.
Julia Swidron: Yeah. So the thing is also that the, they didn't have much need for a separate person. Like they didn't need a developer just to work there full time and develop because it wasn't like that much job to just do it. But then because of that, and me having quite a bit of time as I was a student, I was like, well, I don't mind if I like need two days for like a single task.
Like I will just do it. And, uh, I also took like some certifications in, but like, I don't know if you know, Code Academy. So, um, I took some certifications for them with like how to use React because the project that I was working on was in React and I didn't know, React. So it's like, okay, I need to figure out how React works.
And then I can help in the company because they had like this one small piece of the page, but it was also very stressful at first because I, I really didn't know much. I didn't know how to start, like all of the bucket on my computer. I was like, oh, I didn't know. That was the difference between VS code and V Visual Studio.
And I was like, oh, it's so such a mess. So then I really had just my colleague who was, uh, like setting up everything for me explaining it. I had like, a notebook that I was like, okay, step by step you press here, you do this, you do this. I felt like my grandma trying to use phone. And then I was like, oh, it's so hard.
But then at some point you get used to it. And I definitely didn't have that jump from school, but yeah, there, I could like do more things on my own. And my manager was very supportive of that because also they didn't have much female in IT, so they were quite glad that I could do that too.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Mm, mm-hmm yeah, cuz Maersk is, you know, super old school company. I mean, they're, they're like from the 19 hundreds kind of shipping, you know, scale. And so their digital transformation. I mean, they're, they're probably looking for any kind of new blood that can, I mean, I, it would be, I, I bet they have like, almost like two problems, right?
Like that you'd say on the one hand they're, they're hungry for it and they're ready to do almost any kind of digital. On the other hand, there'll be vast swaths of the company that don't have any idea what to do with it at all. Right.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, that was one of the problems that we had, uh, like, you know, there's some part that they don't have computers and then they write everything on paper and we are like, oh actually, can you use, uh, cloud and just like, you know, deal with that.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: And they're like, you mean like draw a cloud on the piece of paper.
Julia Swidron: Yeah. So that was also one of the concept, like, we had to explain and we were sitting in like those teams meetings and we were like, How to explain to people what the cloud is. And for us, like, I think that's how I got close with the team because they, they were all developers. And then we, they tried to explain something and I was like, well, I hear what you're saying, but I don't know what you're saying.
[00:42:20] The magic of translating ideas between technical to non-technical
Julia Swidron: And I was like, I had to animate the video about it. And we were like, oh, so we will have like, you do it this way. And like, you have this delivery, you have that. I really don't understand what's going on, like, I can just like put words on the screen, but that doesn't explain anything. So we would have to sit and like figure out from scratch.
And then we were like, at some point sitting and like, whoa, what's the cloud. And, uh,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: This is fascinating. So really you were, I, you know, correct me if you're wrong, but now I'm understanding, like what happened was you were hired to be, um, A a trans a transcriber, like the thing that they were actually said, oh, well, take his words, this, you know, cloud guy's under words and turn it into a presentation.
And then we're, and you're gonna show that presentation to people who are completely non-technical and it's supposed to be convincing, like to somebody who's like, doesn't use a computer. Who's used to using a piece of paper to do their business, and you're trying to convince them, you need to use this new cloud app.
And so, and you were being asked to sit in between them and, um, with your design background, you know, you kind of could see the need. And, but instead of just doing transcription, you became a translator. And in the process of learning translator, you had to learn the language of the technical people while still keeping a language with the, the people who were non-technical and bridge that gap.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, that was basically it.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Because now we're coming back to where you'd said before that code for you is, is a tool, right? The code is a tool. And here we can see that like, oh, it's, it's like, oh, the, the code is a language of describing the behaviors and things like this. And you, in order to really understand what the, the possibilities of the, of, of what you could do, you need to understand more deeply the systems in the, the languages that build it.
Cool.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, because I think it's like fun, but I don't think I would learn it. Like, other than that, I think this project was really something that I was like, like, you know, I thought that I know computers and then I was sitting there and not understanding like how we're gonna have long meeting. And I was like, I really like don't understand computers.
So then you kinda want to know a bit more so we can understand and tell it to other people. And I think that's one of the issues with coding that I also had at first that it starts very simple. Like you just do, oh, 'a = a + 2', and then you're like, okay, that's fun, fun, fun. And then you go to those all abstract concepts and you don't know where to go. But then when you understand it, you know, that it's quite simple and that there is other ways to describe it, but people just don't seem to be doing it just yet too.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Okay. Well, I, I can kind of see how you would be, you know, by your experience at Maersk, you'd be, well, you know, better prepared for working at a place like Deloitte, which probably has customers like Maersk, right? Like it has customers or they do not have, tech native people, but they need to invest in tech. And then they end up with something that's half baked. And then they need somebody to come in and help them get over the hump.
And they need people who speak both languages. And that's where you're coming in. Like, I know how to speak to the deeper technical side and be curious enough to really dig in there while still being able to relate to the people who are not patient enough to dig in.
Julia Swidron: Yeah. I mean, um, so also like at Deloitte, I think we also help the new team because like, so for example, if Maersk was a client of Deloitte that I would be working on right now, we would probably train with those people. Like we are joining existing teams. It's not just us doing the project. And then we're just like saying goodbyes and leaving it, but then we also let help the set up the team that will take over and make sure that they know everything that need to maintain it and grow it.
But just the first stages we are doing.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: mm-hmm how did you end up at Deloitte though?
Julia Swidron: Just applied. Hmm.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Who just applied?
Julia Swidron: Yeah.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: like?
[00:46:52] She sent 250 job applications to find Deloitte
Julia Swidron: Uh, well, I was, uh, I really wanted to leave Copenhagen. So I applied for many, many, many, many jobs. I had like my Excel sheet, which also explains how I got in Deloitte because I used Excel. So then I had my Excel sheet with more than like 250 jobs that I applied for. And then eventually Deloitte, um, invited me for interviews and I was like, well, hell, I'm going to interviews
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Was Deloitte the only one who invited you to interviews.
Julia Swidron: No, I had some interviews, but, um. Not all of them, I was like that interested in, because at some point, um, there's like a slope that like at first you're applying for like all of the companies you're like, yes, like Microsoft, here I come. But then you get this like no answers for months. And then you're kind of getting depressed and you apply for like some startups of three people, and then they will of course message you.
But you're like, do I really want to work in a startup of three people? um, I had more interviews, but Maersk was, uh, um, Deloitte was like the company that I really, um, wanted to get the interview for.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: And why, why Deloitte?
Julia Swidron: Um, because I think as I said that I'm not like that much of a developer, like I wouldn't concern, like. Uh, that I would want to join very like IT company and just like be with very technical people all the time. So I think at Deloitte is quite nice mix for me that I also get this communication that I get to talk to people understand what's the issues.
We do research in a bit different way.
So that's why I like it. And I think it fits me just as a preference.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm, cool. So does that mean you have, uh, you know, plans for your career path at Deloitte or beyond Deloitte?
Julia Swidron: I have a lot of plans. I'm very like, uh, five years ahead kind of planned that changes every year, but it is like more or less for next five years. I have some, um, career goals that I would want to hit, but I'm pretty sure they will change.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I, I think that's actually the right way to do it. I mean, you wanna keep, you know, um, kind of a, you know, bubbles of goals, right? Like there's goals that are far out there that, you know, like conceptually, they are easier to hit because they are kind of, they're not too specific.
Julia Swidron: Mm-hmm
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Right. But they're far enough away that, you know, you're gonna have to do a bunch of stuff to get there.
So the path to them becomes ambiguous. Can you give me like one of your, your big goals,
Julia Swidron: Um, well, okay. So I want to be more of a manager. Like I definitely see myself as a manager, but then I want to be manager in, uh, IT's here. Just because first of all, there's not many female managers, especially in IT. And I think that this is really lacking and intimidating. So one of my like big goals would be to work on equality with, uh, female in IT.
But yeah, the way there it's quite a bit. And, uh, let's see.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: What do you think is the first step for kind of going down that path?
Julia Swidron: Well at Deloitte, I would say it's quite, uh, easy. Now I'm a consultant need to be senior consultant and then I can apply to be, uh, for like more managing positions. So if I stay there, that would be quite easy. And, uh, I don't know. I will, now I want to take some more of like leadership trainings. I'm trying to read more and just get to know how to work with people in that way.
But,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: What do you think makes
Julia Swidron: Hmm.
[00:51:07] What makes a good manager?
Zeke Arany-Lucas: What, what do you think makes a really good manager?
Julia Swidron: Um, well I think someone that understands both side and I I'm one of those people that believe that the best managers are the ones that struggled with the issue first. So I think like the good IT managers that I had, they also were coming from like they were developers before. And, uh, I think if you understand the issues and if you're not very one sided, if you're, um, because it's very easy to write like a user story that will be like, okay, you need to complete this and that, but it, then it's extending and extending.
And if you've never been through it, and you're just putting more pressure on someone to finish something, then, uh, yeah, I don't think that's good, but a lot of, uh, managers that's been through it that they had like stories that were lasting longer and longer, they will understand. And then they will try also, to write reasonable, like manage project in reasonable way for both sides.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm. You know what, um, you want some unsolicited advice? I'm gonna ask you to solicit me for advice.
Julia Swidron: I want the advice.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I think, um, just from talking to you, I would say you should, it would be good to seek out opportunities where you get to interview other people to be hired, as much as possible. Especially because, um, when you talk about the diversity thing, Right. You know, say I wanna bring more diversity. The first place you bring diversity actually is in the hiring process.
And in theory, even as a developer, you can be pretty influential in the hiring process by, you know, just injecting yourself into the hiring conversations and making sure that diversity, and especially cuz you have this background, um, where, you know, you've seen that like there's different skill sets that kind of can build from different directions.
And you can say, I trust people who come from these, these other places and you know, cuz in the hiring loops, people will be like, oh their person, how do you know whether they actually know how to code? If you know, if they only come from a multimedia background, like that is that doesn't give you any coding skills.
Right. And you can be like, you're right. But...
anyway, so I would, I would, I would go, I don't know. Are you allowed to hire, are you on hiring loops currently?
Julia Swidron: Uh, no, but I have to pick initiative that I joined. So I think I will do that. I was actually, yeah, I still have to make a decision cuz I need to talk with at Deloitte, we get counselors that take over like your career progression. So then she also has to approve my, um, steps and uh, I will have meeting with her soon to talk about what I can do because also I just passed my, um, I mean like few months ago I passed my probation, but then it was like end of fiscal year.
So now I can finally like look for something and see what are the actual options for me there.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Well, the cool part about the hiring thing. I mean, the being part of the interview loops and the hiring loops and that decision making process, is, even if you're not gonna be a manager, even if you were gonna go, you decided that you wanted to be some other kind of IC leader or product leader or something like that.
Which I mean is pretty easy. I could imagine that there's several forks available for you with your background. Um, but hiring will always be relevant for all of them, right. So how do you choose a team? How do you, um, you know, and, and especially cuz you you're talking about being, you know, uh, extroverted, you're gregarious, you like this aspect. A lot of times, very technical people, you say they, you know, they're hiding in their basement, but really it's that they avoid some of these other skills, which are so crucial.
I mean, you, you already describing it, like the teams, you worked on determined a lot of what your work experience was like. And, and some of that is cultural, meaning, Hey, we got some policies or we got some other things on the team, that determine what the team feels like. But a lot of times it's just hiring.
So you just hire five people and how those five people get along then determines what kind of team it's like. So if you chose the wrong people, it doesn't matter what policies you have. It's still gonna suck.
Julia Swidron: Yeah. I agree. Hmm.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Yeah. So that's, that's why, I mean, whatever, the, my little preamble at the beginning of our discussion, right? I'm like, I believe that, you know, it's really getting into the hiring space is where we'll be able to affect diversity. And it's really at the, the, the people who are right on the front lines, the people who are, you know, saying, I, I care about diversity and it's like, well, if you care about it, you know, make sure that you get a chance to have your voice in deciding and who joins your team.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, I agree. And, uh, it's a bit complicated topic in like companies this big, I think Deloitte has like 300,000 employees. So we can imagine that all of the processes to get, uh, um, in an initiatives are quite complex before they allow me to talk to anyone to interview them. But I will definitely look into that.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Yeah, I'm just saying, I think it'll be worth it. And I suspect you'll enjoy it. I, so I have a little bit of mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I love the process of meeting new people and, you know, learning about what they bring to the field stuff. The rough part of course is you actually do have to make a very hard decision.
Even if you talk to somebody and you're like, this person's great, but I don't know how they're gonna fit on my team. Then you have to say no,
Julia Swidron: Mm-hmm
Zeke Arany-Lucas: You know, and that, yes, no thing is, can be emotionally draining. I think for me, at least it's emotionally draining.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, even, uh, at school, like I would say we have this, uh, we had a little bit of preview of that when you have to pick like your, we usually had to work in fours and then picking like the four people that you want to work. And I did like for the first pre projects with clients, I made the mistake, like not really a mistake, but I worked with friends.
And then I picked like, oh, we like each other. So we must like work great together, but then it really didn't work out. Well, we were much happier when we didn't have to work together on the same project, because I, I had different, uh, way of working than them and, um, different skills. So my project, when we were working for client, I was more like, okay, we can do it more technical.
And then my friends were like, well, actually we shouldn't be doing like that much technical. And I was like, well, it's such a waste of time to just like, go out and take photos of this sky for like, whatever project. So, and we got just very frustrated because we had different things.
I wanted to grow like my, um, development portfolio. And then they wanted like more the artistic part of the multimedia design.
But then after like a while, I was like, I will just pick people that I like, but I don't necessarily put like that we are friends first and then, uh, find if they want to do more technical project or more design project. And if we were both on like the technical part, that was much easier and the project was like, the end result was much better because we had the same goal in mind and not like two completely different things.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: So I'm curious, uh, you know, like for most of the people, I talk to have a pretty core intrinsic motivation as one of their, their, the reasons that they, they were successful and they're able to drive over.
And I think we've actually seen that with you about this translation stuff. Um, was there also, do you have a support system? Do you have people that you rely on? Like, I mean, when things get, cause it doesn't always go well,
Julia Swidron: Well, I definitely have a support system and, uh, maybe mine is quite unusual because I live abroad for like a few years and my whole family is in Poland. So I'm very used to just, uh, changing countries, like every two years, I'm oh, I'm done now. So I will like, it's my country, number four right now. So it was Poland, New York, Copenhagen, and Berlin.
And every time I have to like find new people to be my support system, but I have like my core system, which is, um, my mom and my sister. So then I would, uh, call them crying many times, but
Zeke Arany-Lucas: And what did they say that helps you get through?
Julia Swidron: Well usually they actually don't say much and I think that's something that helps me too, because I'm, um, I'm very person that like, oh, if I speak out loud, I kind of make sense that I don't make sense. And I also journal a lot. So whenever I have bad time, I can see my journals just getting thicker and thicker.
And then whenever it's good, I'm like, oh, I kind of forgot that I have it. So it really helps me just to say things out loud. And then, uh, if it doesn't make sense, if I cannot communicate it well, then I'm like, well, I don't make sense.
Like, I should just probably shut up and like, try to see what am I like, what is my issue?
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Interesting. So you use writing already as one of your kind of core skills you write for yourself?
Julia Swidron: I'm very bad writer. So I would like, it doesn't make sense. I'm very sorry for whoever wrote, read, had to read my thesis, but I'm not that good with words, but it makes sense to me. I like putting it out and, uh, I would write out of bullet points, you know? So it's not full sentences. I wouldn't say that writing is my skill, but it's saying like, just communicating what I want to say.
I I'm good with that. Just not in pretty sentences. Maybe I should take like writing classes.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Well, I was bringing this up because I I'm a firm believer, that writing things down, and it's not required. This is there's a difference between, you know, writing it down and then making it ready for an another audience,
Julia Swidron: mm-hmm
Zeke Arany-Lucas: but just writing it down and being forcing yourself to structure it in a way that it makes some kind of sense, usually changes the, the way that information is processed by your brain.
I, I find that to be quite useful. So it's, and it's often a skill that takes people. Many people just don't pick up on that, they don't understand how valuable it is to just write things down.
[01:02:26] Julia is explicit with journaling and organizing
Julia Swidron: Yeah, I mean, it also depends like, what do you use writing? Because if you have to force yourself and like, you only do it on bad days. Like that's also kind of depressing because then you have this like depressing journal of whatever, bad emotions. But, um, I'm a very organized person which maybe didn't come through my emails because I forgot to answer you.
But usually I am more organized and like, I have show you on camera, but like, they won't see it, but I do like journaling with all of my tasks. So I have it for like months that I will write whatever I need to write first. So I write my brain dump and like, it's not what I have to do. It's all of my emotions.
So in the morning I will just like, take five, 10 minutes, write it out, let it go. Like all of my romantic life drama, all of my family drama stress, or whatever, I would write it down, then pick up my three top priorities for the day and just like time block, it never stick to the time block, but I have it like more like to do list.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Uhhuh Uhhuh. It sounds like you could write a book. A bit about that, right? Like this technique, this is the Julia method of, uh, organizing your emotional day
Julia Swidron: Yeah. Which is very dramatic. Like, uh, it's one of those things that I don't want people to read through because they will know that how dramatic of a person I am. And how I notice like those small things that I will think for days about, but it's not really like that important after all. It just lives in my brain until like the next morning that I have to write it out.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: I'm, I don't know. I, I make the joke that, uh, my thinkingness doesn't come out in the wash, because you know, like my brain is basically always kind of spinning on something, that riddling on stuff, you know, sometimes. Sometimes I will go to bed thinking about like a coding problem. And I wake up in the middle of the night with like the answer and then I have to go write it down so that I can remember in the morning, like the genius that I, you know, like my coding genius. You know, it doesn't always turn out the way it turned out in my dreams, but a surprisingly large amount of the time, it really does.
Like that there's the, the brain kind of spinning on things feels crazy making, but it, it, it often can produce, I don't know, good stuff, at least for me. I mean, also there's some bad stuff too. I'm not gonna say there's been nights where like I don't sleep at all and, and that's a, you know, spiraling in the wrong direction, but
Julia Swidron: Yeah, but, uh, it helps like,
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm.
[01:05:20] Notetaking can become brainstorming
Julia Swidron: and also like the ideas, I think it's always like, just thinking in the background. So yeah, for me, it helps to just like go and not think, but I think it's one of those skills that I got in design that when I was designing logos for someone, and one of the first things is, is that you really have like few, like you take an hour and you draw everything you think of, even if you know that it will look bad, you just have to let it go.
So then you kind of have pages and pages of like very unusual stuff, but then you will find like two or three ones that you actually like. And I do the same with my thoughts and, uh, with coding as well. Like I have few concepts, I will, write it down in bullet points in them and like, yeah, this one will be ridiculously stupid, but this one maybe makes sense.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: That's pretty classic brainstorming activity, right. They always say, you know, put all your ideas out there without judgment. Do not judge them, just let them all flow out. And then in a different, this is the scatter FA the scattering of ideas, phase. And then as a separate phase, you say, oh, let's, you know, gather them back in, but organize them, you know, cluster them or filter them, or, um, do something else so that you get down, you reduce the set down to a couple of really salient ideas that are worth working with and the other 30 or whatever.
Yeah. You just let, 'em fly away in the breeze.
Julia Swidron: Yeah, so. But I think for me, it's the, just the habit that I have from my design past
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Hmm. Yeah. It's very design design or, I mean like the, I guess the, like the double diamond method at Google is very design centric, which is that kind of, um,
Julia Swidron: Exactly. So, and I think it's also easier, like when you start with design, so it's easier to kind of figure it out because in design, it takes you like five seconds to come up with idea. You're like, oh, you need to draw an apple. You'll have like, just a certain amount of waste, like you think right away, but then become like you spend some more time and you figure it out.
While if in coding, I find it that some issues are just like seem at first unsolvable. So even finding one solution that could work is not really like that easy. So if you start with coding and you have to force yourself to figure out one solution, then you have it. And then you're like not convinced and you cannot think of anything else.
It can be frustrating process.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Yep. Okay, well, um, I think we're reaching the end of the clock here. It's been a great call. Thank you so much. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a lot to think about tonight. We talk about thinking here, spinning on it. Um, is there anything, uh, you wanna leave for other people who wanna get ahold of you or, uh, know more about what you're doing?
Julia Swidron: Um, well you can link my LinkedIn and then I can talk with anyone, but I'm quite open person. So for me, it's just like, if you want to talk to me, I will gladly talk and, uh, do stuff. But I don't think I have any wisdom because it's also quite late. So my wisdom left the chat.
Zeke Arany-Lucas: Your wisdom left to chat? Well, I will go over our discussion at some point and figure out what wisdom, you know, I got, that's what I said. I'm gonna be riddling on it myself.
Anyway. Uh, thank you very much. And it was great talking to you and I hope you have a good weekend.
Julia Swidron: Well, thank you. You have good weekend as well.